Game balance and longevity

[Skaldarnar]

Oh, I agree completely on the idea of a vulnerabel player at the beginning of the game, but after several hours of play he may have reached a "superior" state - in the fashion that he is dependent on his subjects to preserve his power.
As it should not be too easy for the player to get the information he seeks from a tribe it may become a nuisance to go to all the stages of interaction/communication/(tasks and quest?). Advanced players may decide to conquer other tribes, but that does not mean that it will be an easy task! E.g. there may be plants covering the whole ground in a jungle camp which deal damage to unaware characters - until you learn how to walk over them safely. But you don't get that knowledge if the clansmen don't trust you.
Moreover, other tribes may turn on the player make his journey a fatal voyage...

 

[eleazzaar]

SURVIVAL

Into survival i put everything that you have to do to stay alive (obviously), that is mostly geting food supply in MC. It could be possible to expand on that by making it a little more complex and realistic, without making it too constraining and frustrating. In MC you quickly get to a point where not only your life isnt in danger anymore, but you produce food at an industrial level (even in non tech mods). A good balance would the possibility to build a comfort zone (also known as home) where you are safe, providing you take care of it.

Of course all these additionnal constraints should be balanced by a richer world : more animals, more plants, NPCs, etc.... I think in that regard, as some mods have shown it, nothing prevents us from having a much bigger fauna / flora than in MC.


So, a few ideas concerning survival :

+Add to the necessity to eat, the necessity to drink, to maintain body temperature, and there could even be diseases that you'd need to heal from with plants.
+Make growing / breeding a little more difficult by slowing(gestation time for cattle, plant grow much slower, etc...) things and making them less predictable.
+Adding seasons, requiring to plan ahead (nothing grows in winter), occasional disasters, cattle diseases, predators, whatever makes it a little more complex and realistic without excess.
+Making food perishable, making stocks and preservation should be an issue.
+Limiting a lot what you can hold in your inventory, making survival an issue again when you go on a trip far from home(see below).

EXPLORATION

Exploration, traveling and discovering, would be more rewarding if not everything possible in the world is at walking distance. If you want to see other biomes you'd need to plan for a relatively long, and of course dangerous, journey. As said above the richness of the universe should make it worthwhile. So :

+Larger biomes area. You dont cross a desert unless you're prepared.
+biome specific content. Other biomes dont just look different, the biome hold biome-specific plants and animals. The rare flower that you need to heal from a disease might only grow on the top of mountains. Available materials give local buildings a specific appearance.


EDIT

I forgot to mention hunting, as a way to get food. More challenging: animals dont wait for you except for the predators, puting the emphasis on team work and the need to craft range weapons. More rewarding : one animal should provide much more than the usual 2 porkchop.

Many of these ideas sound a lot like Terra Firma Craft, a minecraft mod.

Some of them IMHO add to the survival fun, but others just make the game more grindy. Still i recommend that those of you interested in these gameplay ideas give it a try, and get some first hand experience with these kind of mechanics.

 

[Cervator]

Yeah TFC has come up in the past and I've played with it a little. Pity it is one of the pretty hacky mods as far as setup goes. Had thought about setting up a server but the effort and hassle ... eh

I know not everybody would enjoy that style of play, thus why we should aim for multiple different game types. I need to go ahead and post the little chart thing I came up with

Also, bug fix win from TFC: "Fixed deer so they are no longer shearable animals that mate with chickens to produce cows."

 

[Eliwood]

So, level with me for a little bit, all right? Pretty damn lengthy post incoming.

Games like Pokemon. They're repetitive. You see the new Pokemon, and you're all like, "Oh whoah, I've never seen that one before!" After you fight it once, you're like, "Meh." Individual encounters become a chore, boring, irritating. You don't wanna deal with them, but you have to anyways, because it's apparently okay to run up to someone and yell "FIGHT ME" at them if they so much as cross your path. Even these encounters, with other NPC's, are forgettable, unless they're really a major figure in the game. Even with all the know-how and supremely massive basis for software nowadays, they're sticking to making more of the same.

Essentially, it's absurdly repetitive, and I, for one, could never make it past the halfway point before I threw my hands up.

It also has, in my opinion, the single, largest, glaring flaw to ever disgrace the gaming industry at large: GRINDING. It's just... wrong, to me. Why should it be more difficult to do something the MORE I DO IT?! WHAT!?

I digress.

Minecraft. I won't lie, the game has some serious flaws (In my opinion, I suppose). The lack of interesting physical stuff, really, in the core game is so very disappointing. Once you've seen one world, you've essentially seen them all. This doesn't always apply - sometimes you find things that you find interesting, like strangely shaped mountains - but overall, it's quite drab. This isn't so apparent with multiplayer because companions make the game INFINITELY BETTER. Having the dynamic of others playing with you cannot be understated - it really creates a feeling of enjoyment that would otherwise be impossible in a static world.

What I just said pertains mostly to world generation, however. The enemies in Minecraft are unbelievably good at doing what they seem. Skeleton are creepy and, no matter WHAT, even if I see them beforehand, getting hit by an arrow FEELS jolting. Zombies can freak you out if you're not careful, especially with the moaning. Creepers, you stay away from - they're dangerous, and if you're not careful, they'll wreck your face. Spiders, if you aren't careful, will somehow find a way into all of your things, unless you take steps to PREVENT that - in flat-foot combat, they're much, much harder to keep away than ANY OTHER ENEMY. Ghasts are AMAZINGLY good at making you panic, which only helps them as they blast holes in the netherrack around you. The bosses are memorable and unique, with one being a giant dragon that gets healed and flies around (I only wished it would land, and breathe fire, and have more interaction) and the Wither is a flying cannon that deals damage over time. And the villagers, while not perfect, provide a pretty nice atmosphere in absence of multiplayer.

It's a pretty good experience, for a while. I enjoyed base Minecraft solidly for three-odd years, before it became a tired concept for me. But along the way, I discovered mods. There are SO MANY MODS for this game. It's insane what the community has done. I'm not even going to start, because I'd be typing out another ten-thousand words. Suffice to say, mods bring a new level of refreshing to the game.

We go to Dwarf Fortress. As far as I am concerned, it is the single -BEST- most immersive sandbox game I've ever played. The "crafting" and creation of goods, as well as the building of a fortress, and management, and the whole nine yards that (most of you, probably) we are familiar with, is done exceptionally well. There are fancy names, strange creatures, memorable moments, and overall, the game has such a feel of ADVENTURE to it. It's a SANDBOX game, and yet it feels like an adventure, with different stages, and challenges to overcome. I think that, to sum it up, it's always refreshing to play. To add to the awesome, it's MODDABLE.

And the game is NON-GRAPHICAL, pretty much. It's ASCII. Toady, you have done the world a service.

All of my bias for DF aside, game longevity is easy to make bad, and very hard to do well. You fill the game with meaningless events and circumstances, taking only a bit of time to throw in maybe one or two oddities. It works for a while. However, if there's nothing to keep the player going, then what's the point? If there's nothing in the background, compelling the player to just cope a little longer and something amazing will happen, then it's not so bad. If you have a giant bank of basic ideals to draw on, and different concepts, and you can throw them together in interesting ways to give the player a sense of progression, that's what I'd consider at least good game time.

Game balance, by the same token, is acutely difficult to do properly. You only have so much to work with - your creativity, your knowledge, your skills, and whatever else is thrown your way. From this, you need to make enough to where whatever length your game is, there's content sufficient enough to really fill it with interest.

So, with ALL THIS in mind: How do we do it? How do we IMMERSE the player enough to where they're truly enjoying themselves, but at the same time, leave enough out to give a length of game?

The short answer: It really depends.

The long answer: It really, really isn't certain. Game genre defines much of what a game will be, which in my opinion sucks. An RPG doesn't HAVE to be grindy, but more often than not, I've found, it will be. Likewise, a platformer doesn't have to be repetitive, but they often are.

The best way I've found is to think creatively. Take this block game, and throw in wacky elements. Make things oddly shaped, make things colorful, make them do weird things. Have a block where, when you click it, gradually constructs a tower. Sounds useless - until you realize that you might be able to apply the same procedural building in other ways - dungeons, rainbows, etc. Or maybe it constructs paths between itself and another similar block, or maybe it shuffles the world around it.

Maybe there's an entity that, when you approach it, rapidly begins to apply moisture to everything around it - to the point where blocks become water, and you're suddenly standing in a pool.

The best games, in my opinion, are the ones that don't require a whole lot in the way of graphics in order to really immerse you - and instead, rely on some form of progression, or plot, or just strange events that make the world feel alive, vibrant.

I know that most of this post doesn't honestly have too much to do with the argument. Likewise, it's my opinion. I'm a very adventurous soul.

 

[Skaldarnar]

Hey Eliwood, nice long post
I totally agree with your point that it needs game aspects where you differ from what the player might expect! Build up an environment that is alive, give the player a goal (even in an endless sandbox game) so that he can "finish" it somehow. I think a good example is MCs Ender Dragon, which offers you some good "excuse" to stop/finish one world (start another).
Nonetheless, it is all a matter of balancing. Having mobs do unexpected things is nice and exciting - as long as it does not destroy the base you worked on for days. Or at least there must be something to balance things out, like advantages for the player.
One thing that may be hard for us is to get all the mods work together in a way that they make use of each other - like you said, use proc building gen for different things, ....

That's for now, running out of time... maybe I'll add more later

 

[glasz]

Grinding, to me, is kind of a projection, in an imaginary worl, of the workplace. You do boring, repetitive tasks, just to maintain your right to exist in this world, and advance your career. I think this mecanisme has been maintain in most MMOs just for its capacity to induce some compulsive dependency to the game. I need that level up. I dont know why i just need it.

The best games, in my opinion, are the ones that don't require a whole lot in the way of graphics in order to really immerse you - and instead, rely on some form of progression, or plot, or just strange events that make the world feel alive, vibrant.

Agreed. Although graphics is obviously a part i'm much interested in, the fact is, if you do a text based game, the only limit is your imagination and coding ability. And it's been a tendency for the industry the past 20 years to sell us the same game over and over with fancier graphics.

On the surival thing we talked about : my idea is not so much to make the game more difficult, but mostly to make it more real. Like in : snow is not just pretty, it's cold. Desert are not just sandy, they're hot and dry.

The best way I've found is to think creatively. Take this block game, and throw in wacky elements. Make things oddly shaped, make things colorful, make them do weird things. Have a block where, when you click it, gradually constructs a tower. Sounds useless - until you realize that you might be able to apply the same procedural building in other ways - dungeons, rainbows, etc. Or maybe it constructs paths between itself and another similar block, or maybe it shuffles the world around it.

Agreed again. The possibility to generate procedural content should not be an excuse to leave creativity aside and let computer permutations do the job. I think we get tired of a game when we feel it cant be surprising anymore. Even when we have not seen all that's in the game, we know that what's left to see will be kind of similar to what we have allready seen. We kind of feel the code behind it all. Wich means that the procedural stuff should only be a first layer, and above that should be added elements that break the logic, are suprising, and possibly change what you can expect from the game.

It would be interesting to think about what makes it possible that some board games never get old, despite the fact that he base elements are quite limited and simple. Of course playing against a human makes a difference, but computer are now quite good at chess, for example. I think, it may have to do with the combination of different logics. The movement of each chess piece is different, not just in the amount of motion possible, but in the logic of that very movement, wich in a way makes the board a different place for each piece, all the challenge being to make those different logics work together.

 

[UberWaffe]

Given how diverse and personal the concept of "this is fun" is, this is a very difficult question to answer.

Since people have already voiced opinions about "short-lived" modes (ex: L&S) vs. "long-term" (ex: Steam Fortress), vs. "Career" (ex: WoW), I'll take a stab at my usual verbal diarrhea on the following topics:

• Directed vs. Aimless
• Individual vs. Communal Achievement
• Proposed game mechanic: Maslow's Marshmallow Pyramid Scheme
• Proposed game mode: Grand Civilizations, and their overly demanding citizens

Directed vs. Aimless
I prefer directed games, as in there is some or the other ultimate goal, even if it is a fuzzy one, or a massive undertaking, or utterly nonlinear (i.e. a list of many goals that are to be achieved in whatever desired order).
In fact, a nonlinear list of multiple goals I feel is the best, as it allows the player creative freedom, while providing something to aim towards.
(Minecraft Complete the Wool Monument maps such as the Super Hostile series is a good example of this).


Individual vs. Communal Achievement
I like the idea of a game where the player isn't just some lone hero somehow toppling every insurmountable odd with their shiny sword of smiting +74123 and polished mustache. But instead forms part of a community or team, working together to achieve greatness, while still having flexibility for the individual to shine.
A powerful/advanced individual should be able to take on many weaker foes, but not endless weaker foes.
Similarly, the effort of the "I am powerplaying 20 hours a day" of an individual should benefit all it their community, though still benefit that individual more. In a way, think of a "not too plagued by human flaws" economy. If an individual manufactures a lot of goods, it benefits the community as a whole (even a newcomer can have access to the new goods), and the individual that managed to achieve it reaps the additional benefit of making a lot of money.


Maslow's Marshmallow Pyramid Scheme
A great many games suffer under the problem that the beginning is hard, and as you progress it becomes easier. This boils down to the player usually becoming better (through whatever means) at the game, while the challenge stays much the same.
In minecraft, this is especially obvious in things such as food and resource gathering. Once you have really good tools and infrastructure, resources become near meaningless.

To this effect, I suggest that the challenge should ramp up.
I.e. monster attacks should grow more severe, etc, etc. and all those other means as well.

But specifically here I think more of the player should have something similar to Maslow's pyramid.
Initially, a player should desire drinking water and food, and simply what is required to survive at that.
But as the player consistently satisfies those needs, the next tier of the pyramid should start gnawing at them.
The need for clean drinking water, then more food, then shelter, then more variety of food, then luxuries, etc. should kick in, each a step in the pyramid, and each new need rather stubbornly staying in place even if the player then starts failing to meet those needs (increase in lifestyle is easier than decrease).

That way, the player is forced not to just spam wheat and bread to render the hopping hunger bar meaningless, but rather has to actively explore, and upgrade, and expand to meet their own greedy desires.
A player might need to decide to exercise restraint and not satisfy a new need, until they are truly ready to, and instead suffer the unhappiness (and whatever game mechanics that might entail) instead.


Grand Civilizations, and their overly demanding citizens
Now, on a similar thought line, the same idea can be applied to a civilization.
The ultimate goal being to take control of a civilization (i.e. gather minions of a specific race, or various races, or whatnot) and start a community.
That community will also have a pyramid of needs, starting off with basic desires in small quantities and increasing to complex and advanced needs in large quantities.

The player has to then meet those needs, via automation, commanding the minions, whatever it may be.
And again, the civilization would be more eager to increase their life styles than decrease it.
And one could throw in increasing disasters and monster attacks and whatnot as the civilization grows (via their own wanton raping of nature or angering other civilizations or whatnot).

This would also allow a 'teching-up/levelling' mechanic that benefits all.
Say, instead of a player building their own little furnace for smelting steel, they have to build a more expensive steel mill that can be used by anyone in that civ to make steel, and is used by the civ NPCs to make steel all the time. Those that contributed to the steel mill construction gain some benefit, but everyone can then use the mill to obtain steel, and not have to make their own. (Though perhaps need to expand it if the demand gross too large).
Or say that some players create a magic school, allowing them to learn better spells and abilities. As the founders, they get more skill/attribute points, but all can still go to the school and learn magic.

Etc. Etc.

One could even add cultural interactions, where you need to maintain a position of power within the society, otherwise you can no longer directly influence the society's choices.

The final goal could be a massive one, such as growing the civ to massive proportions of great achievements, in all forms of tech and magic. Etc. Etc.


Last words:
This, again, is more my style of play. The civilization type goal. It allows for communal goal driving, with individual achievement. It allows scaling of difficulty with the player's growth. All in all, I think it could work rather well.

You could even allow a 'semi-reset' approach, where once you 'beat the game' you set off with a small handful of your civ, some resources, and go to create a colony in a new, perhaps more harsh, location, while now having to meet the 'tribute demands' of the capital while meeting your own needs.

Stuff like that.