Cells, cells, cells

[woodspeople]

Thinking about the GUI...

I wonder if the things-in-square-cells model is the only way to arrange things. There are other possible models. If I think of how I'd like my inventory to be laid out, I can think of lots of other visualizations. Like,
- tabbed sections (like pages in a book) with color-coded "collections" the user can rename, like "tools" and "materials" and "food" and such. I've noticed that a lot of people arrange their inventories in MC by "sectioning off" different areas for tools, weapons, food, building materials, torches, ores, etc. I wonder if a more explicit sectioning would be useful?
- some kind of network nodes-and-sticks view where things are linked to each other, and when you click on something it comes to the center, and all the similar-in-some-way things cluster around it (like in those visual thesauri); you click on an iron sword, and all your swords, or all your iron things, or all your nearly-used-up things cluster around it, and maybe you hit space to toggle which criteria drive the clustering
- a way to "favorite" some items so you can get to them faster (not "you are holding them" but "you put them in your most accessible pocket"), or to give things markers like the Mac file colors so you can find them again quickly (they "stick out" of the mass of things)
- several ways to sort: by color, by age, by weight, by usage, by caloric value, by hit points dealt, by who gave it to you, by where you found it, by name, by experience needed to use...
- a "detail" view where you can see lots of info about each thing on its own line: when you got it, where you got it, how much use is left in it, etc - I notice that people are doing that for MC with TMI and other mods, like looking at how much use is left in tools, because you do want that info!
- recursive nesting: you carry a backpack, and it can have backpacks/chests in it, and you never look at an inventory but always at a container of some kind; your "inventory" is just "the container you carry" (this is my all time favorite for which I would give up all else)

Anyway my point is that it might be fun to think of more ways to show inventory and the "hot bar" than the usual grid of cells. I know I'm not volunteering to actually code any of this so I can't speak! But I'll bet other people in this group have some ideas in this line too?

 

[B!0HAX]

Cells are for biology...

IMO, the best inventory style is one that works with 'stones'(unit of weight) and no limits in organization...

The player has a limit on XXX Stones, lets say 500 stones...
Then each item has also a prop. that is the weight = (in stones)

If the player gets overweight, then he's going to be tired and maybe reduce walk speed, or make it even more advance and have a "stamina" player prop, (like health) but the difference is that the player doesn't die if he gets 0 stamina, he simply has to wait to recover...
(like RL when you come with many bags from the supermarket and you need to stop for a sec to get a breath)
But really I'm not sure if this is a good approach for a game like this one...

Maybe if we introduce stamina recovery potions / strength potions (and other stat modifiers) it could work nicely...
so actually players can move on and reach a higher stone limit.
(Some rule examples for weight(stones) could also be applied like ORE weighs more than INGOTS)

This inventory style feature would need the drag-n-drop to simply position on the item in a [x,y] coordinates in the 2D plane of the inventory leaving the user to organize thing however they wish, even letting users craft bags to store things in them, that you can perfectly toogle in your "1-9" bar without them having to be in the main inventory bag.

U0nline has this kind of main inventory: ((look at those sub-bags and nice ingots))

We would break with the "CELL CELL CELL *oh shit how the pony do I fit the new l00t into my inventory!* CELLS CELLS CELLS" (really common in games)

Diablo I:

Dungeon Siege:

just as examples, many others would follow this cell-style...

Cells are for biology... :]

 

[Cervator]

I agree on the desire for a non-cell based inventory, and also loved the UO style. Our current inventory was just to have something

I also like nested bags, weight, and stamina. Slow down proportionally to how overweight you are, and drain stamina faster.

Volume restrictions that make sense I think are important. Not arbitrary cells, but no putting a grand piano in a backpack, even if you have the weight allowance. Russian nesting doll-based inventory

Shouldn't be too hard assigning rough width/height/depth to objects and the same to containers - but displaying it in a way that looks nice and makes sense, dunno, that might be harder.

I have a different plan for being able to move bulky objects more easily. Gotta catch em all...

 

[woodspeople]

Like the stones thing. One problem I have with MC - well, with most RPGs - is that there are so few non-fighting challenges. I'd love to be challenged by limitations like weakness, weight, slowness, limping, illness, thirst, cold, wet, smoke inhalation, blood loss, infection, gangrene, maybe even "genetic" flaws that appear randomly would be cool, etc. If you watch Paul Soares Jr's Man vs Minecraft series, you can see some of the conflicts between the survival game he wants to play and the game he's actually playing. One time he got attacked by a lot of monsters and got down to half a heart. He was "in character" and going on about how he probably had broken bones, and had lost a lot of blood, and that was interesting. It was kind of disappointing the next morning when all that magically went away and things were back to normal. A longer-lasting impact would have been more challenging!

It may sound overwhelming to add so many impacts, but the lazy coder's rule is: any variety that is not hard-coded is free. You could do a run-time definition of conditions that define a small set of influences, like on speed of movement, carrying capacity, regeneration of health, hunger, thirst, etc. THAT list of influences would be quite small, maybe five or ten; but the list of conditions could be huge.

On the storage, my vote would be for recursive storage, because if you have that you can do lots of things without extra coding. (More lazy coding!) Besides, recursion is something computers do much better than we do!

I don't want to build more castles in the air. But: some of these infrastructure-type things have to be thought of in the beginning. It gets ten times harder to bolt them on later. Avoiding having to say "that's a great idea but it's not how the system works" is worth some time up front (says the person who has often found themselves saying that).

 

[Cervator]

Yeah, I agree, inventory is one of those things we need to be fleshing out better right now. This is even the appropriate milestone for it

DF did a lot of the extra "effects" from combat, hunger, etc, but then also had a very easy time doing that from being text-based and pause-able. There was no such thing as a health bar (not visible, anyway) all damage was done via a body part system. Some of the very early discussion we did here was related to that - and the health bar I expect is as much of a placeholder as the inventory screen.

We just need MOAR PEOPLE to work all this great potential

 

[woodspeople]

Three things left to say about this.

1. Yesterday we talked about inventory and we had one more potentially useful idea, which we place respectfully before you. If it were possible to see the size of a person's inventory, say with a blocky backpack stuck to their back, then players (in multi-player) could tell how much stuff other people were carrying. This could lead to some fascinating social dynamics including the obvious one (theft) but also deception: carrying lots of large useless things like dirt to appear rich and powerful, or conversely, carrying small portable wealth (many diamonds) in what seems to be nearly empty backpack. And a large backpack could prevent a player from entering small spaces. This could lead to "inventory scanners" at castle/town entrances, consisting of narrow entrance tunnels (something like a camel going through the eye of a needle). (We are ignorant of all online RPGs other than MC so do not know if this idea is old hat.)

2. On our walk yesterday we were talking about "vanilla" versus "modded" systems, and I suddenly realized that : vanilla is a flavor. That might be a good slogan for a super-flexible modding system.

3. I wanted to say that I am fully aware that words are cheap and ideas are only slightly less so, when compared with actual development work. We expect all ideas we contribute to be treated with the respect and value they deserve, and not one cent more.

 

[B!0HAX]

Yeah, I agree, inventory is one of those things we need to be fleshing out better right now. This is even the appropriate milestone for it
[...]
We just need MOAR PEOPLE to work all this great potential

I agree.

1. [...] fascinating social dynamics including the obvious one (theft) [...]

I love this idea, (stealth-pvp-thief has been my favorite play-style, stealing the foe's bandages in combat, and the mages reagents so they wouldn't be able to cast certain spells, lots of fun & funny situations...)

3. I wanted to say that I am fully aware that words are cheap and ideas are only slightly less so, when compared with actual development work. We expect all ideas we contribute to be treated with the respect and value they deserve, and not one cent more.

I think Ideas (specially in this case : inventory) must be discussed and actually set some sort of aim so not only one is working behind the scenes.
I would love to work on the inventory system (specially if its going to be the [x,y + subcontainers] idea,
Im no pr0·c0der (yet), but I'm getting familiar with the project and trying my best to understand all the logic behind.
So if I start by-myself I would be a bit lost...

 

[Cervator]

A dynamically growing square backpack on the back of a model sounds doable, and pretty spiffy, I like - I think we can do that with the same technique that makes the GelCubes differ in size

With scanners and such it almost sounds a little like EVE Online. Which isn't the first time, incidentally, huge chunk of blueprint potential there

As for inventory discussion pre-implementation - this is it! We're setting the goals right now. Like with the mod system doing a Proof of Concept to check the feasibility of using JS, I say call this the green-light to do a design / proof of concept for a nested-container inventory system using weight and max dimensions rather than a finite number of cubbyholes - keeping in mind that those are likely to remain as an implementation detail as well as an UI element for other stuff

On "Vanilla" - it's a good term with lots of potential, but also in use all over the place for other stuff, like one of the Spout modules, so also lots of potential for confusion there IMHO

 

[overdhose]

the hell ya'll talking about??? don't we have minnions to carry our stuff around?

*keeper mode off* I also like weight and no puzzling timesinck, the game should be more interesting then that and ultimately... my comment stands hehe

I don't know if anyone here watches anime, but in hunterXhunter I always loved that "BOOK" that spoofed out of the air and opened up... thaumcraft has those mobile chests which are pretty fun... I'm not saying to drop the idea, but I'd handle inventory a little different then a way oversized backpack. I vote for the book hehe ^^

 

[B!0HAX]

proof of concept for a nested-container inventory system using weight and max dimensions rather than a finite number of cubbyholes - keeping in mind that those are likely to remain as an implementation detail as well as an UI element for other stuff

nested-container ∞ inventory system (weight limit)
[x,y pos. reference in a backpack interface] & [sub-container storage depending on item's dimensions]

a simple version
[x,y pos. + subcontainer] > limited by total weight allowed

I vote for the book hehe ^^

Do you mind detailing your vision a bit more?

 

[woodspeople]

Or the walking trunk from The Color of Magic (Terry Pratchett)... that eats people...

A book that holds stuff? Sounds cool but more info on that?

 

[overdhose]

ach heh

HunterxHunter was an anime about a game in which you collected cards. To actually cast something or add spells, you had to say "Book" and a book materialized out of thin air floating in front of you. You could open it and cast spells / store items etc...
It really created a unique feel.

I ain't saying we should go for that, as it fitted the card game better, but why not some kind of assistant /mule minion instead who automatically picks up drops and warns you when he's encumbered? Depending on what you want to do, you could have different mules accompany you, each with his own added pro/con, like a stone carrying mule being large and strong, a herb gathering mule small and nimble, etc. It could run away when you enter combat or return home if you do the lemming thing. I don't know what the game will look like eventually, but walking around with a backpack with tons of bricks in it...

Or something even wackier then that, if anyone else has some inspiration

 

[Cervator]

That's actually the exact idea - a focus on helper creatures that'll do most the carrying, building, dying, etc

The player's inventory will be limited heavily vs. what you can carry in a game like MC. But it might still be cute to have a visible backpack that gives you a clue to how much said creature is carrying. In particular since it doesn't need to be limited to players...

 

[ironchefpython]

Re: Cells are for biology...

The player has a limit on XXX Stones, lets say 500 stones...

Holy Superman! I wanna be able to carry around two pickup trucks!

 

[woodspeople]

If there are minions I want the option to be one :twisted:

 

[Cervator]

"Possession" spell from DK one day, perhaps, to swap bodies

Could prolly have PC minions of another PC (or even an NPC, but they're likely to be less inspired than PCs)

 

[overdhose]

then we all need to be hands, pimp slapping the minions around... that was the story behind Manus Lenoni originally, a purple gold chain wearing monster pimp... His only fear in life is that black SM misstress, who just kept begging for more pimp slapping!

I even had his theme song pinned down :
PURPLE REIGN... PURPLE REEEEIGN :evil:

I remember Dungeon keeper best from it's dutch translation... phrases like "Je slaven hebben een groter hol nodig" and "je slaven gaan onderling op de vuist" still make me and my buddy smile.

just remember, I call dibs on the name Manus Lenoni ^^

 

[Cervator]

Haha, "Purple reign"

And for anybody out there that haven't played Dungeon Keeper this may not make much sense. But believe me, it is funny, and you all need to try playing DK

 

[woodspeople]

DK sounds like a lot of fun. I would have loved it at 16 or even 20. But it sounds like way too much horror for an eight year old (torture rooms?). One of the reasons MC is so popular is that the scary parts are played down and optional. This is one of the best arguments for sandbox gameplay: that what's fun and what's scary changes as we go through life. What is fun at 16 is pretty scary at 8, and I've seen kids playing on MC servers as young as 6. Then, when you get older and have kids, what seemed fun starts to get scary again, especially the parts in which vulnerability lies unprotected. I'd rather poke my eye out with a stick than watch a movie about anything bad happening to a kid. It's instinct.

Also, things feel different for different people. Some people with very strong imaginations feel pain when a pretend character, "good" or "evil", is hurt; some don't. I do, or at least I do now, and I can't come up with any way to make that fun, though I have tried. This reaction may not be at the midpoint of the bell curve, but it is far from uncommon. It also doesn't mean I'm lame or weak or cowardly. I just don't find it fun to inflict pain, real or imagined; and I don't enjoy watching anyone in pain (real or imagined) either. I recognize that people who do find pain and horror fun might be very nice people, and I don't think they are wrong to like them or that violent games are necessarily horrible. I hate horror movies, but I have good friends who love them. But still, I assert my equal right to play games, and RPGs, the way I want to. If you look up "non-violent RPGs" you can get a sense of the vast untapped and frustrated market of people who would love to play RPGs if it didn't mean endless and senseless killing.

Every game creator has a choice in whom to make happy when, what to include and what to exclude. An open source game is unique in that the choice depends on how the group forms and who leads it. I've argued on this forum for TS to have flexibility in its gameplay so its players can make choices for themselves, so I can play a game I love (non-violent, complex, multifaceted, creative) and overdhose can play a game he/she loves too. A game that could accomplish this would be, in my mind, a game unlike any (computer) game ever seen before, a sandbox game in all possible ways; a game of games. MC and DF and DK point the way by making it possible to do more with your brain than follow instructions, but I think TS could do better than all of them.

However: I'm not sure if my attempts to advance this point have been welcome in the group. I'm not even sure why I've been posting them. It's just kind of happening. If people don't want to hear any more of my ideas about all of this, please do say so and I'll stop. Really and truly, I won't be offended if anybody says "back off" or even "go away". I have lots of other things to do with my time! (And I am mindful that I'm not actually coding, at least not beyond the limited thing I built, which is not without burden in being non-integrated.) What TS ultimately becomes depends on the whole group, as it should. So let the group choose.

 

[Cervator]

You still worry too much, I think, I personally value your opinions very much, and I believe TS is better off having your voice around

DK is very cartoony, it isn't like cruel and dark or anything. It is one of those flip-takes on a typical RPG where you are playing the "bad guy" and the "good guy" heroes are invading your realm for no other reason than glory and honor since you're "different". And you play one of these imagined (never seen) "Keepers" that are manifested in their dungeons via a floating hand (the mouse cursor)

Or that's kinda-sorta one take on it, it certainly quickly becomes about taking over the lands of the good guys (and other bad guys) with lots of old fashioned (cartoony) combat. I suspect you could actually attempt to complete the whole game without killing a single creature, as combat only "downs" the loser, who can then be recovered to either heal back up via sleeping (your guys) or be converted (enemies). Tho the magic imps just go poof, and there are a few times when you might be unable to avoid killing.

Torture chambers are primarily for converting enemies (good or bad) to your side, then they just join and live in the dungeon like the monsters, and add to the complexity by triggering unhappiness if good characters live or work near monsters (and vice versa). Then the one creature attracted by that particular workshop is an over-exaggerated S&M mistress, who likes just hanging out and torturing critters or even themselves.

And for what it is worth I can't stand horror movies either. They're awful, especially with nothing but one-dimensional characters who make horrible decisions over and over

I very much hope we can support non-violent and alternative forms of gameplay simply depending on what whomever is playing the game wants. That's in part why I pushed for the "magic nature hippy" race proposal to not get fireballs, instead using various ways to dazzle their way to resources or out of danger.

I think you're very appreciated welcome here. Don't feel bad if other (more typical) topics come up as a given, that doesn't exclude the alternatives! Be confident in knowing your concepts indeed have merit