Sub-block billboard plants

woodspeople

Member
Contributor
Design
Some plants from PlantStudio images shrunk down to 16x16. Doesn't work that great: the fun detail all goes away. Not sure it works to use generated plants at this level. Must be hand made? If billboards could accept > 16x16 maybe?
sizes.png

Several (best) attempts at 16x16:

tiny plants.png


These could theoretically be cleaned up ... but I'm not sure they are any better than starting from scratch. Reactions?
 

eleazzaar

Member
Contributor
Art
Some plants from PlantStudio images shrunk down to 16x16. Doesn't work that great: the fun detail all goes away. Not sure it works to use generated plants at this level. Must be hand made?
Yeah, if something is going to be 16x16, there are very few scenarios were you would get something useful by shrinking it down. Plant billboards should be made by hand pixel by pixel.

Higher res images might be useful as reference.

Also for the artist to remember, billboard plants are generally placed twice rotated 90 deg. (as in minecraft) otherwise they disappear when viewed edge-on. The artist should keep that in mind or it will look goofy.
 

metouto

Active Member
Contributor
Art
Also for the artist to remember, billboard plants are generally placed twice rotated 90 deg. (as in minecraft) otherwise they disappear when viewed edge-on. The artist should keep that in mind or it will look goofy.
eleazzaar ..... could/would you please give examples to help me picture in my mind what you are say in the above quote??? thanks
 

eleazzaar

Member
Contributor
Art
 

metouto

Active Member
Contributor
Art
But is that now how they normally look when placed in game?

I ask this because the "tulip" I made for the game was just placed in the game and looked like that. I did not think there was any other way to place them unless you placed them in as a block then you would have 6 sides to them and if the the background was set to transparent the they would really look strange.
 

eleazzaar

Member
Contributor
Art
But is that now how they normally look when placed in game?

I ask this because the "tulip" I made for the game was just placed in the game and looked like that....
I just meant that it is something to be aware of when making art. That's the way it is in the game now, but it could be done differently, i.e. rotate 60 deg. and repeat 3 times instead of 2.

Here's a dandelion and iris. Looks better in game than flat on white.

dandelion.png
iris.png


One thing i wish minecraft did more of was have biome-specific plants. Flower unique to one or a few biomes would help make each look more distinct, and give you another reason to explore (collect them all).
 

woodspeople

Member
Contributor
Design
The scheme, el, was to reduce the art bottleneck leading to lots of cool plants like the cool blocks metouto made by using algorithmically generated plants. It would be really cool to have biome specific plants, or even just plants that grow above certain resources or have certain magical properties, as things to run around looking for in-game. To do that we need not two or three billboard plants but like 30 or something, of an interesting variety. Generated plants seem one way to get that and fast.

There are three possible outcomes of shrinking generated plants:
- if you clean up the 16x16 images you can get pretty good looking plants; it just takes some pixel adjustment
- you can't clean them up, but they can inspire the creation of plants from scratch
- the whole thing is a bad idea and we should just wait for people to make plants

Metouto tried the first option before and it worked out pretty well I thought. So I'm not ready to abandon it entirely! But I don't necessarily have time to do all that myself/ourselves. Maybe one plant every few weeks :) But if anybody wants to make better plants from scratch (like your two el) that's great too. Just trying to find shortcuts to get things rolling.
 

eleazzaar

Member
Contributor
Art
The scheme, el, was to reduce the art bottleneck leading to lots of cool plants like the cool blocks metouto made by using algorithmically generated plants. It would be really cool to have biome specific plants, or even just plants that grow above certain resources or have certain magical properties, as things to run around looking for in-game. To do that we need not two or three billboard plants but like 30 or something, of an interesting variety.
Put together a wish-list of distinctive small plants, and i'll start doing several a week until i get sick of it. If it is obscure, (i.e. it doesn't show up much on the first page of results in google images) links and/or images would help.
Doing those two was a nice little art-break.

Good intentions notwithstanding, it is more efficient for me (and i expect most artists) to make the billboard from scratch.
 

Cervator

Org Co-Founder & Project Lead
Contributor
Design
Logistics
SpecOps
I think we'll probably have space for both boring ole 16x16 billboard plants made from scratch (inspired by higher res stuff or not) and something fancier - like outright exported .obj files from PlantStudio. it seemed like overdhose was very close to actually making one of those plants work like a model in-game rather than a billboard.

That would probably be the ideal way to get lots of detailed plants, since PS already does the spiffy generation. Anybody else wants to give it a try? :)

Admittedly, yeah, that isn't immediately usable, and even if it works we then need to come up with a way to place them in the world, which takes more code. PlantBar on the left side? :D

(That's mostly a joke, but probably would actually work in theory with just a little work)

metouto - the billboard textures just by convention are actually drawn in the world twice, two to a block, at a 90 degree angle, to avoid that quirk eleazzaar mentioned of how looking at a single billboard drawn at a particular angle would be almost or entirely invisible due to your angle. Yeah, there's no way to draw just a single "pass" of a billboard plant. In some games the billboard is drawn once and just made to always face the player nomatter what, which has its own quirks.

eleazzaar - some from-scratch billboard plants wouldn't hurt, I'm sure woodspeople can post some examples from PS. You can even test them in-game pretty easily, tho we still need to expand the block ID so we can fit more at once..
 

woodspeople

Member
Contributor
Design
We thought of and discussed some ideas for plants that might connect to a biome-specific exploration framework in-game. Wildcrafting (gathering wild plants to eat) is one of our hobbies (mostly the mom's) so we know a little bit about (the fun of) finding useful stuff in the world. So we applied ourselves to connecting this to TS. The process we used was to make a list of things people use real native herbs to do, then think of similar in-game applications. Hopefully this will be of some help :)

We thought of five linked sets of plants/herbs to be found in each biome (one or two or three of each type?). They are in linked sets with alliterative titles, mostly so we could remember them.

1. Healing and harming

1a. Healing herbs

Real examples:
- Shinleaf. So called because you can rub it on your shin when you scrape it. Also useful in tea for sore throat.
- Self-heal (heal-all), violet leaves, soothe sore throat in tea.
- Chamomile and mint soothe upset stomach.
- Meadowsweet contains a precursor to salicylic acid (aspirin), good for headache.
- Mullein is good for coughs, as is colt's foot, yarrow and teaberry.
- Cleaver contains an anti-inflammatory agent.
Real catch:
Some healing herbs heal in small quantities but not in large. Example: yarrow is great for colds and fevers, but in larger quantities makes you throw up. Colt's foot helps with sore throats and coughs but also contains liver-affecting akaloids so should be used in small quantities.

In-game:
When you stand next to a healing plant, your hearts regenerate more quickly. If you harvest a healing plant you can break it into leaves, which you can carry in your pockets and which have the same effect. You can build a "hospital" by cultivating healing plants in an area.
The catch: Healing plants heal your enemies as well. Some know about this, some don't.

1b. Harming herbs

Real examples:
- Stinging nettle. Just brushing up against this plant in sandals will hurt for a while; grabbing one feels like ten bee stings.
- Baneberry, or doll's eyes. Small plant with bright white berries, like plastic doll eyes. Creepy. Very poisonous.
- Poison ivy.
- Lots more poisonous plants. Lilies are poisonous.
Real catch:
Some plants, like false hellebore, play a part in native ritual ceremonies of courage and coming of age. Think there is a similar thing in Dune?
Nettle when dried makes an excellent herbal tea with restorative effects on the kidney.

In-game:
When you stand next to a harming plant, it hurts you. You can build defenses against enemies with them. You can process them into poisons.
Catch: Your enemies might know about harming plants. Some plants can be used in purification ceremonies in which, if you don't quite die, you gain some ability. Some harmful plants, if prepared in the right way, become healing.

2. Glowing and guiding

2a. Glowing plants

Real examples:
- no plants, but phosphorescent tiny animals in the ocean are sometimes used as lights; also fireflies
Real catch:
- don't know

In-game:
You can use glowing plants like you use torches, only they spread or something. Some species grow only on the ground, some only on vertical cliff surfaces, some only under overhangs, some only on trees. If you look around you can find glow-plants to suit your needs.
Catch:
None?

2b. Guiding plants

Real examples:
- lots of plants that signal water nearby, like tall meadow rue, skunk cabbage
- lots of plants that signal other plants nearby, like touch-me-not (impatiens) is usually found near poison ivy
- plants that signal soil health/poverty, like moss usually grows on spent soil (but requires clear air); some plants signal overfarmed land (pin cherry trees is one)
Real catch:
- plants could be planted, thus not reliable; river might be long gone, etc

In-game:
Guiding plants signal the presence of something nearby, usually beneath them. Minerals, underground water, something. One type of guiding plant could have a root you could fall down to get directly to whatever the plant signals (diamonds?) but only if you have long-fall boots (which are expensive).
Catch:
Some guiding plants might be unreliable? You could plant them to confuse other players?

3. Protecting and persuading

3a. Protecting plants

Real examples:
- this is the category of homeopathy, of plants that in tiny doses build tolerance to things
- many tonic type herbs are in this category: evening primrose, lavender, nettle, red clover flowers, strawberry leaves, flowering spurge
- all herbs of this type are preventative, towards building better overall health, not for use in crisis
Real catch:
Some of these healthy herbs have side effects, for example flowering spurge is a strong laxative if taken in too large a quantity.

In-game:
Protecting plants have cumulative properties. You pick a plant, say, and process it into some number of leaves, say 60. Every day you eat one leaf, and your ability to do - something - increases daily. You are stronger, more tolerant of cold, quicker to recover, something. However, if you forget and miss ONE day, the whole thing resets and you have to start all over again.
Catch:
Cumulative protecting plants might have slighty unpleasant side effects, especially if you take two in one day by mistake.

3b. Persuading plants

Real examples:
- native plants used as deer bait, to slowly habituate deer to a particular tasty meadow that becomes deadly come hunting season (lots of deer attracting mixes sold online)
- conversely, many plants and mixes sold to repel deer, rabbits, moles, etc
Real catch:
Sometimes the thing you plant to attract one desirable thing attracts something undesirable; same with repelling.

In-game:
These plants have cumulative effects on NPCs: enemies, minions, creatures. They gradually become something you like better: more docile, less likely to attack, they give you more of something you want. As with the protective plants, forget one day and the whole thing resets.
Catch:
Something else is attracted/repelled.

4. Manufacturing and money

3a. Manufacturing

Real examples:
- I can't think of anything I use to build anything today, but when I was a kid we used to use the "silk" from milkweed flowers to make doll pillows. Native Americans used cat-tail fluff as disposable diapers. Flax, cotton, indigo, reeds, etc etc. Pine needle baskets.
Real catch:
- Not sure. Cat-tails can be hard to get to, in swamps and ponds. Reeds can cut your fingers.

In-game:
These are just plants you can use in manufacturing recipes.
Catch:
They might also sting you, or something.

3b. Money

Real examples:
- we have been told we could sell some of our abundant moss on the internet; we don't want to, but evidently it goes for a lot
- some people collect particular wild herbs and mushrooms to sell to pricey restaurants
Real catch:
You had better know your plants if you want to sell them.

In-game:
Some plants might be worth something in game cultures. Some might be able to be processed into something of value, like gold, and some might be traded in outright.
Catch:
Maybe there would be another plant that looks a lot like the expensive plant but isn't (fool's gold). Requires time and attention and knowledge to distinguish them.

4. Food and fun

4a. Food

Real examples:
- dandelions: we harvest and eat lots of these every spring (the fried buds are wonderful)
- chickweed, some kinds of grass: our chickens love these, and it saves us money on chicken feed
Real catch:
You have to know your plants to avoid undesirable outcomes.

In-game:
Some plants fill up your food bar. Some will satisfy pets, livestock, minions, allies, enemies.
Catch:
You have to know which ones are safe to eat. Probably wild plants should not be easily cultivated.


4b. Fun

Real examples:
- some plants we gather not for nutrition or food, but just because they are tasty: teaberry, sourgrass (sorrel), mint, red clover flowers (sweeten tea)
- St. John's wort grows all over around here; it makes a nice calming tea; so do chamomile and lavender
- Chicory is a coffee substitute and a mild stimulant
Real catch:
Not all tasty things are good for you.

In-game:
Some plants make hard things easier, because you are having fun. It takes fewer hits to break a block; you can run a little faster; etc.
Catch:
Maybe you could get addicted? Deleterious long-term effects?


Hope that's useful :) Other people might have other suggestions for real plants that fit in all of these categories, though keeping things real is not at all necessary; just consistent :)
 

woodspeople

Member
Contributor
Design
On the OBJ thing, the only thing I'm worried about is the polygon count. The artists who used PlantStudio wanted that pushed up, not down, so we made it high. If there is a way in Blender or something to smooth models to have fewer polygons it might work, but if not the PS plant models might be too "big" for use. It is on our list to try it if nobody beats us to it. DXF might also work.
 

Cervator

Org Co-Founder & Project Lead
Contributor
Design
Logistics
SpecOps
Nice stuff - I'm going to have to finish reading that from home, but now I'm already picturing glowing plants across the landscape at night :D
 

eleazzaar

Member
Contributor
Art
glowbell-lit.pngglowbell.pnglavender.png

A "glowbell" in bloomed and unbloomed form, and lavender.

RE: Plantstudio OBJ plants:
I'm worried about total stylistic incongruity. That seems to be about as different as you can get from a voxel, 8-bit-style everything else.
 

Cervator

Org Co-Founder & Project Lead
Contributor
Design
Logistics
SpecOps
woodspeople - Wildcrafting sounds pretty neat. I wouldn't mind knowing nature better like that. My father was a little like that, especially with spotting birds.

Love all the ideas :)

Dune had the special water that could either kill you or give you /enhance psychic powers/visions.

Moss - I guess it sells well in RL for craft supplies? Not just for artsy stuff either, wave a bag of nice moss at a warhammer tabletop player and they might start drooling or something :D

@eleazzaarr - thanks for the tiny plants, they look very nice :)

On poly count and .obj - yeah, there might be some wishful thinking here of wanting to play with procedural plants and tapping into existing potential that doesn't mesh well with our world setup. I thought maybe very fragile and thin plants could blend in some, but big high-res ferns as 3d models certainly wouldn't.
 

woodspeople

Member
Contributor
Design
I'm worried about total stylistic incongruity. That seems to be about as different as you can get from a voxel, 8-bit-style everything else.
@eleazzaarr I REALLY like the plants you drew. They are good enough to be placed alongside metouto's blocks and tulips :)

I agree about stylistic incongruity being an issue. I never even considered the OBJ thing until I saw Overdhose's monkey heads. Surprisingly, they didn't look all that out of place even though they were not blocky at all. Two questions. (1) Why is it necessary to stick to voxel 8-bit style? Is that kind of ... derivative? What is the reason to stick to that which is not "it's how you do voxel games"? Because that's not a good enough reason. (2) How consistent does that have to be? Sometimes contrast can be useful; it can confer meaning. Reference "angulon" conversation...

Cervator: Garden shops buy moss to sell it to people who want mossy areas in their yards, and craft shops sell it for model railroads and stuff, and florists use it in arrangements. Moss grows well in areas where the soil is depleted from bad farming (our area is still recovering 80 years after the farmers left). But moss, paradoxically, requires excellent air quality to grow (some urban areas are termed "moss deserts"). People in suburbs with better soil and worse air have a hard time getting moss going, so some country folks sell it to them. Wildcrafting is the funnest game I know :)
 

eleazzaar

Member
Contributor
Art
@eleazzaarr I REALLY like the plants you drew.
Thanks. I regularly push pixels for fun and profit.

I agree about stylistic incongruity being an issue. I never even considered the OBJ thing until I saw Overdhose's monkey heads. Surprisingly, they didn't look all that out of place even though they were not blocky at all. Two questions. (1) Why is it necessary to stick to voxel 8-bit style? Is that kind of ... derivative? What is the reason to stick to that which is not "it's how you do voxel games"? Because that's not a good enough reason. (2) How consistent does that have to be? Sometimes contrast can be useful; it can confer meaning. Reference "angulon" conversation...
The "angulon" conversation was pretty low on specifics.
There's STYLE and there's style. You could say that the Dwarves in the LotR movie had a distinct style from the elves (architecturally, and so forth), but but both styles fit within the overall STYLE of the movie. Architecture from TRON while a different style, would also not fit into the STYLE with the rest of the LotR movie. That's a rather extreme example -- but illustrates the point some elements don't belong together. You can make the factions look stylistically different (pastel colors vs high contrast metallic tones, or slender vs bulky and chunky) without resorting to totally different rendering style (Simpsons vs Disney cartoon style). Using detailed OBJ models for some plants would be the equivalent of having Disney artists do parts of the scenery for the Simpsons. I don't know how to describe where the line is for "too different" -- but those plants would be way over the line.

The monkey heads are out of place -- though currently it is not as obvious with the general lack of content.

Here's a post where i briefly outline advantages of sticking with the 8bit blocky style.
 

woodspeople

Member
Contributor
Design
I take your points and mostly agree. It's just sad if going down the voxelated path means everything has to look just like you-know-what. If there was a way to stay simple and avoid looking like a clone it would be worth finding.

I think Overdhose's idea in that other thread was the best one: see what things actually look like before we pronounce anything right or wrong on principle. Seeing what any kinds of detailed OBJ models look like in-game (plants or anything else) would be worth doing. There are lots of free models somebody can plug in and look at, not just plants. Better to see in the game than to see only in the mind :)
 

eleazzaar

Member
Contributor
Art
I take your points and mostly agree. It's just sad if going down the voxelated path means everything has to look just like you-know-what. If there was a way to stay simple and avoid looking like a clone it would be worth finding.
If you look at various minecraft clones, or jake the dwarf-- there are many distinct styles within the lo-fi, blocky universe.

I think Overdhose's idea in that other thread was the best one: see what things actually look like before we pronounce anything right or wrong on principle. Seeing what any kinds of detailed OBJ models look like in-game (plants or anything else) would be worth doing. There are lots of free models somebody can plug in and look at, not just plants. Better to see in the game than to see only in the mind :)
Test if you want. But I'm not quoting some art dogma to you. Being an artist increases the accuracy and resolution of your visual imagination. I have enough experience as an artist that i can confidently predict how some things will look -- especially something so obvious. It's not the sort of thing you can prove with words, but i would have though this would be obvious to others as well.

Either my observation is trusted and/or shared, or it is not. I can't prove it's validity with words.
 

glasz

Active Member
Contributor
Art
I take your points and mostly agree. It's just sad if going down the voxelated path means everything has to look just like you-know-what. If there was a way to stay simple and avoid looking like a clone it would be worth finding.
The fact is, we dont have to go the blocky/pixelated/8 bit look at all. The only thing that needs to be blocky for technical limitations is the landscape. For the creatures, we could have 10 000 triangles each with hi-res textures. The problem is stylistic consistency. Sticking to 8 bit style is the safest, fastest, way, and can be picked by many people. But as eleazzaar said there is style within style. Something i agree is simpler to explain trhrough examples than words. So i'd say at this point many roads are open to us stylically, we can go the easy allready explored 8 bit road (wich would still require some work, especially if we want our own distinct style), or go for a yet undefiened "something else", that would require more time and tests and such.
 

Immortius

Lead Software Architect
Contributor
Architecture
GUI
The "angulon" conversation was pretty low on specifics.
There's STYLE and there's style. You could say that the Dwarves in the LotR movie had a distinct style from the elves (architecturally, and so forth), but but both styles fit within the overall STYLE of the movie. Architecture from TRON while a different style, would also not fit into the STYLE with the rest of the LotR movie. That's a rather extreme example -- but illustrates the point some elements don't belong together.
Yeah. My rather undeveloped thought on the angulons was that they would be blocky but more of an emphasis on slopes/pyramids than cubes. They would otherwise be textured similarly.

I do agree that highly detailed plants would look out of place.
 
Top