World Theme and Backstory
- Thread starter SuperSnark
- Start date
GoldenDragon
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If we should have spells and abilities to the classes(or maybe we shouldn't have classes, I don't know), we can we make a system where you actually do something to make the spell hit the enemy/friend, not the "select a target and cast a spell" system (I call it that way, and it's used in MMORPGs like WoW), but that you actually have to aim for the target when casting a spell or firing a gun or slicing with a sword etc. If you cast a healing spell for example, it should heal yourself if you're not aiming on a target (target is a NPC or player).
What do you think about it?
What do you think about it?
Considering we are still at the stage where you have to say "if we have spells and abilities, and if we have classes" trying to define a system for the abilities we may or may not have for the classes that may or may not exist is far too early, I think, to delve into such minutiae as to 'how does this system work.'
Perhaps you could have a goal in mind, such as "FPS style targeting' or "stock mmorpg style selecting," but I don't know that you can have a meaningful discussion at this point about "a system where you actually do something to make the spell hit the enemy/friend." This is a very vague concept, and it is on top of other concepts that are still vaguely defined themselves.
You can't start painting a house before you put up the walls.
Perhaps you could have a goal in mind, such as "FPS style targeting' or "stock mmorpg style selecting," but I don't know that you can have a meaningful discussion at this point about "a system where you actually do something to make the spell hit the enemy/friend." This is a very vague concept, and it is on top of other concepts that are still vaguely defined themselves.
You can't start painting a house before you put up the walls.
I'd like to expand on some of the things discussed that i think make an interesting gameplay angle :
Each ressource in the world can have different use, depending on what way of interacting with the world the user has/uses. It could range from harmfull to useless to usefull.
A ressource could be usefull in different ways , on differrent levels. Physical (technology) and spiritual (magic). The ability to access one , or several, or all of the uses of the ressource will depend on the skills of the player.
If we imagine an elf versus dwarf kind of world, the skills owned would depend on the race, but it could be class dependant, or we can even imagine that the player create his custom character at startup, buying skills within a budget.
Different uses means among other things different kinds of goods/artefacts produced, with their own uses, that can be tradded. Another interesting aspect would be the confligting views on what way the environment should be re arranged.
This would lead to a world where conflict rule. To avoid having it turn in some team fortress game, one solution would be to make « violence » very expensive to all players, so rather realistic in its consequences.
Each ressource in the world can have different use, depending on what way of interacting with the world the user has/uses. It could range from harmfull to useless to usefull.
A ressource could be usefull in different ways , on differrent levels. Physical (technology) and spiritual (magic). The ability to access one , or several, or all of the uses of the ressource will depend on the skills of the player.
If we imagine an elf versus dwarf kind of world, the skills owned would depend on the race, but it could be class dependant, or we can even imagine that the player create his custom character at startup, buying skills within a budget.
Different uses means among other things different kinds of goods/artefacts produced, with their own uses, that can be tradded. Another interesting aspect would be the confligting views on what way the environment should be re arranged.
This would lead to a world where conflict rule. To avoid having it turn in some team fortress game, one solution would be to make « violence » very expensive to all players, so rather realistic in its consequences.
The more I think about the magic/tech contrast the more I like it. Because it is a worldview conflict rather than an identity conflict many interesting patterns can come out of it. Also love the idea of violent death being more than an inconvenience. (Or at least configurable thus...)
I was putzing around with the game over the weekend and thinking about ways we can gradually implement some of the features we're discussing here. I think it's important to place an achievable path before us. Start small; within the bounds of the MC setting we have, and grow.
To keep things simple and close to our original formula in the beginning (and to keep with the idea of two factions) I thought it would be fun to:
1. Pick your starting culture. Tech or magic.
- This determines your starting "toolset"; meaning (for example):
*You use a pickaxe to harvest/mine rock for building structures.
OR
*You use a spirit-tap, to leach energy from living things (plants / trees) to gather a pool of energy to "grow" structures.
Basically the concept is still the same; but you have different approaches. Instead of using destruction to build with the tech side, you leach energy from living things to grow organic structures (build a tree-house kinda thing).
2. One of your "Tools" is a default starting weapon that could be upgraded.
- Gun (tech)
- Fireball (magic)
3. Players would initially start on the map at a random point, but surrounded by NPC members of their own "culture". The opposing culture is always hostile (to start simple). Killing friendlies will not be possible. Neutrals (beasties) can be killed.
4. Goals for the game could be multifold. Winning conditions could be multiple or based in parts:
A. Wipe out the opposing culture via physical attack (this should be prohibitively hard, but possible)
B. Achieve a certain level of cultural or technology development
C. Explore and "claim" a certain amount of territory.
D. Achieve a certain level of resource wealth
E. Deprive the enemy culture of an asset key to their survival (say each culture has one critical element - a certain ore; or a certain sacred lifeform)
- There would be no classes (to start with; we could figure this out later).
- There would be no multiplayer to start with (we can figure this out later too).
- Survival (in terms of having enough "food" to eat) could be part of the game; or maybe to make ourselves different, we don't worry about that element. Rather than a "survival" game we make an "objective" game.
- There should be a "sandbox" mode to just "play with".
Maybe something like this would get us started down the road to a "game" with some elements that are unique to Terasology, but simple and achievable to begin with.
To keep things simple and close to our original formula in the beginning (and to keep with the idea of two factions) I thought it would be fun to:
1. Pick your starting culture. Tech or magic.
- This determines your starting "toolset"; meaning (for example):
*You use a pickaxe to harvest/mine rock for building structures.
OR
*You use a spirit-tap, to leach energy from living things (plants / trees) to gather a pool of energy to "grow" structures.
Basically the concept is still the same; but you have different approaches. Instead of using destruction to build with the tech side, you leach energy from living things to grow organic structures (build a tree-house kinda thing).
2. One of your "Tools" is a default starting weapon that could be upgraded.
- Gun (tech)
- Fireball (magic)
3. Players would initially start on the map at a random point, but surrounded by NPC members of their own "culture". The opposing culture is always hostile (to start simple). Killing friendlies will not be possible. Neutrals (beasties) can be killed.
4. Goals for the game could be multifold. Winning conditions could be multiple or based in parts:
A. Wipe out the opposing culture via physical attack (this should be prohibitively hard, but possible)
B. Achieve a certain level of cultural or technology development
C. Explore and "claim" a certain amount of territory.
D. Achieve a certain level of resource wealth
E. Deprive the enemy culture of an asset key to their survival (say each culture has one critical element - a certain ore; or a certain sacred lifeform)
- There would be no classes (to start with; we could figure this out later).
- There would be no multiplayer to start with (we can figure this out later too).
- Survival (in terms of having enough "food" to eat) could be part of the game; or maybe to make ourselves different, we don't worry about that element. Rather than a "survival" game we make an "objective" game.
- There should be a "sandbox" mode to just "play with".
Maybe something like this would get us started down the road to a "game" with some elements that are unique to Terasology, but simple and achievable to begin with.
I might be an idea to do short-term objectives like that, but I'm hesitant to adopt anything that can "win" or end the game, I'd rather just see it as a struggle against the world and whatever is in it, including the other faction. Thriving more than the other guy, maybe getting pointless (but fun) statistics and scores, stuff like that
To make the nature/magic faction different yeah something that lets them do special things with plants and what not. They probably still need to be able to terraform (majorly change the terrain) or the break between them and the other faction would be too great / too uncharacteristic for a voxel world (major terraforming is a feature). Maybe neither side takes issue with rearranging rocks and dirt.
Gun for the steampunkers might be too advanced right out of the gate, and fireball seems to destructive for the other guy. If they start by a Portal (or other "artifact" of the past) maybe they can find a very simple piece of tech ("magic" for the greenies, but still tech). Say the steampunkers find a fancy automated wrench of some kind they can use to start working on the world (or bang something on the nogging with). Others could have a "dazzler" of some sort (sonic screwdriver!) that instead of being used as a weapon of violence could be used to temporarily confuse a target. Sort of goes with woodspeople's angle that you can play the game without violence.
Fancy wrench can help start you on the tech side's tech tree, or be wielded as a primitive weapon to hunt with. To get food maybe this side would kill a wild cow and cook the meat. The other side could use the dazzler to temporarily confuse (calm) a cow, long enough to maybe milk the beast instead and get food that way. Each side then gets something different out of the world, and has trouble getting what the other side gets. Down the road as they each climb the tech tree that could change, with techies able to catch and tame cows (then milk them), while the peaceful faction learn use their "magic" (tech) to clone or grow material like meat instead. At that point new materials have become available, again more available for one side vs. the other.
All the while I'd especially like to avoid any kind of... unique duality features? As in, anything tied to there being exactly two factions /races / peoples in the world. Then when we think of a third faction or minor creature races we can add them in more easily without breaking anything or needing to tweak the existing stuff to explain there suddenly being more kinds of life in the world.
To make the nature/magic faction different yeah something that lets them do special things with plants and what not. They probably still need to be able to terraform (majorly change the terrain) or the break between them and the other faction would be too great / too uncharacteristic for a voxel world (major terraforming is a feature). Maybe neither side takes issue with rearranging rocks and dirt.
Gun for the steampunkers might be too advanced right out of the gate, and fireball seems to destructive for the other guy. If they start by a Portal (or other "artifact" of the past) maybe they can find a very simple piece of tech ("magic" for the greenies, but still tech). Say the steampunkers find a fancy automated wrench of some kind they can use to start working on the world (or bang something on the nogging with). Others could have a "dazzler" of some sort (sonic screwdriver!) that instead of being used as a weapon of violence could be used to temporarily confuse a target. Sort of goes with woodspeople's angle that you can play the game without violence.
Fancy wrench can help start you on the tech side's tech tree, or be wielded as a primitive weapon to hunt with. To get food maybe this side would kill a wild cow and cook the meat. The other side could use the dazzler to temporarily confuse (calm) a cow, long enough to maybe milk the beast instead and get food that way. Each side then gets something different out of the world, and has trouble getting what the other side gets. Down the road as they each climb the tech tree that could change, with techies able to catch and tame cows (then milk them), while the peaceful faction learn use their "magic" (tech) to clone or grow material like meat instead. At that point new materials have become available, again more available for one side vs. the other.
All the while I'd especially like to avoid any kind of... unique duality features? As in, anything tied to there being exactly two factions /races / peoples in the world. Then when we think of a third faction or minor creature races we can add them in more easily without breaking anything or needing to tweak the existing stuff to explain there suddenly being more kinds of life in the world.
I think it's a little early to talk about individual mods running on the Terasology engine, but I like the ideas here, so I'll toss my two cents in.
I'd start tech with a pickaxe. The tech player sees the world as a traditional voxel game, destroy the existing landscape, mix it up through crafting, and rebuild the world to your taste. The pickax is both a tool and a weapon.
I'd start nature with a wand. The wand mechanic would be simple. Where the pickax gathers physical resources, the wand gathers magic resources. The wand can be used to gather life force, in a benevolent fashion by tapping into the life energy of vegetation and wildlife, or maliciously by pulling life force quickly and indiscriminately from an enemy. The resulting life force can be used to cast spells that cause trees or other plants to grow as you indicate (analogous to the tech player's ability to place mined blocks). So the wand would be both a tool and a weapon.
Tech users make weapons and tools, magic users write scrolls. Tech users smelt ore and make machines, magic users create alchemy potions and summon familiars. We can create tech and magic "trees" that are similar in scope, difficulty and power (and hopefully fun).
And of course we have to let the player use both. Don't limit the player's fun.
I love the idea of a fundamental dichotomy between technology and nature, science and magic. Technology is death, change, destruction, macro, direct. Nature is life, stasis, creation, micro, indirect. Technology changes the world by excavating huge chunks from the world and building structures of steel and concrete. Nature changes the world by growing living and working spaces out of trees, etching canyons with rivers, and turning clouds into floating islands. Frankly, I'm not worried about balance between the two, given that the player should be free to pick (or switch between) sides at will, and use the best features of both.
I'd start tech with a pickaxe. The tech player sees the world as a traditional voxel game, destroy the existing landscape, mix it up through crafting, and rebuild the world to your taste. The pickax is both a tool and a weapon.
I'd start nature with a wand. The wand mechanic would be simple. Where the pickax gathers physical resources, the wand gathers magic resources. The wand can be used to gather life force, in a benevolent fashion by tapping into the life energy of vegetation and wildlife, or maliciously by pulling life force quickly and indiscriminately from an enemy. The resulting life force can be used to cast spells that cause trees or other plants to grow as you indicate (analogous to the tech player's ability to place mined blocks). So the wand would be both a tool and a weapon.
Tech users make weapons and tools, magic users write scrolls. Tech users smelt ore and make machines, magic users create alchemy potions and summon familiars. We can create tech and magic "trees" that are similar in scope, difficulty and power (and hopefully fun).
And of course we have to let the player use both. Don't limit the player's fun.
@ironchef: I really like the "wand" vs. "pickaxe" that you describe! That's perfect. Simple and completely representative of both ideologies.
@cervator: Are we really sure we don't want to have a way to "win" the game? Or at least a game mode where that's possible? I think having a sandbox / endless mode is great; but most games have an overall goal or objective to achieve. MC sort of is a "survival" game already; which is why I thought it might be good to buck that trend and go a different, objective-based direction if the player selected that type of game mode. Just because there are achievable objectives doesn't mean the world has to be "limited"; but it does give a player a defined direction that they CAN head in if they choose to (even if getting lost on the way is just as fun).
One thing I need to clear up in my own mind is how Terasology will "exist". From what I've read so far it's not planned to be a "persistent world", right? If it's randomized or recreates itself every time you play then how do extended length play sessions work? Via saved games? Keep in mind that most people don't have hours to play on end and that a shorter, objective-based "game mode" might be a doorway to a broader audience.
By the way, the thought of milking a mesmerized cow is cracking me up!!!!
@cervator: Are we really sure we don't want to have a way to "win" the game? Or at least a game mode where that's possible? I think having a sandbox / endless mode is great; but most games have an overall goal or objective to achieve. MC sort of is a "survival" game already; which is why I thought it might be good to buck that trend and go a different, objective-based direction if the player selected that type of game mode. Just because there are achievable objectives doesn't mean the world has to be "limited"; but it does give a player a defined direction that they CAN head in if they choose to (even if getting lost on the way is just as fun).
One thing I need to clear up in my own mind is how Terasology will "exist". From what I've read so far it's not planned to be a "persistent world", right? If it's randomized or recreates itself every time you play then how do extended length play sessions work? Via saved games? Keep in mind that most people don't have hours to play on end and that a shorter, objective-based "game mode" might be a doorway to a broader audience.
By the way, the thought of milking a mesmerized cow is cracking me up!!!!
Haha, nice. Sounds like a potential tagline of ours: "We've got mesmerized cows to milk!"MarcNottke said:
Yeah, maybe I'm too tied to the sandbox model. Shouldn't be anything wrong with a mode with a goal, if it would be a nice feature for some users, I suppose.
Persistent world - it already saves on exit and the new world browser helps you pick from "saved games", so yep, that's in. Terasology won't host a single persistent world for all users a la EVE Online or anything tho, at least not for a decade or two
Yang is action, creation/destruction, force, speed. Yin is reflection, quiet, growth/decay, endurance, patience. Yang is clashing metal; yin is flowing water. Both are strong and weak; powerful and vulnerable; good and evil; but in different ways. If it has worked for thousands of years it should work well in a game
My responses to the numbered items, hopefully helpful:
Or both! The "master of all" or "bridge" or something would take on the even more difficult challenge of learning both and bridging worlds, maybe as a tradesperson or diplomat or spy or assassin or thief. We have just started watching "Avatar: The Last Airbender" and I like how the avatars, because they bridge worlds, hold special powers and special responsibilities. It would not be that hard to make the system support a "blended" mode in which you attempt to encompass both cultures, right? The most ambitious players would take that on. (All right, I admit it: all my D&D players were neutral neutral, and accomplished thieves...)
And yep I'd always vote for having a non-violent option available, for those who want to take on that challenge. For example the game "Beyond Good and Evil" was great because you could choose throughout the game between outright fighting and mostly sneaking. I found the sneaking to be far more interesting: there was more to think about. In my gaming experience sneaking/dazzling/tricking/outwitting/persuading/mesmerizing is more interesting and variable than plain old fighting which is mostly repetition. Although I will readily admit that fighting might be more interesting it if was better set up. Maybe it's just that all the fighting games I've played were mind-numbingly boring.
3. Players would initially start on the map at a random point, but surrounded by NPC members of their own "culture". The opposing culture is always hostile (to start simple). Killing friendlies will not be possible. Neutrals (beasties) can be killed.
If you start as "both" is everybody hostile or nobody? Who is "friendly" in that case? Maybe "both" means everyone starts out friendly, and "neither" means nobody is friendly. The "neither" case would be the hardest challenge of all: you start as a stranger in a strange land. Now THAT could be fun.
Also, should "beasties" always be unaligned? What if wolves are tech? Maybe that could be part of it?
A few more possibilities for goals:
* Achieve god-hood (you are worshiped by either group or both)
* Achieve devil-hood (you are hated/pursued by either group or both)
* Live hermit-like and be unknown by all (succeed in being completely left alone)
* Cheat everybody and steal anything you want from anyone
* Massage the simulation into a historical replica of Imperial Rome
* Negotiate a treaty between magic and tech that satisfies everyone, and be honored as the peace-bringer
* Win lots of people over to your side (magic or tech) thereby depopulating the other side not by killing but by persuasion (nobody wants to do tech/magic anymore, it's uncool)
There is nothing wrong with a game that has fixed goals. Some great games have very narrow goals. But the potential of sandbox gaming is that the goals could be as flexible as the blocks. The "end" in MC seems tacked-on and silly, because everybody who plays it plays a different game. If you actually PLANNED for that instead of planning against it, a sandbox game could reach new heights. So says me
And:
I agree that it's nice to have a goal... but I've also been burned so many times on games that had goals I didn't care about. For example in The Sims I didn't start to have fun until I found the monkey tree cheat, which finally allowed me to achieve my actual goals, (a) creating fictional characters from books I like and having them play out their books (The Boxcar Children worked out well); and (b) playing my own life over and over with many interesting variations, none of which the creators of The Sims apparently thought to include. So while I agree that "no goal at all" might not be interesting enough, a goal that bores half the population is also a problem. How about a middle ground where the list is not one or two but, like, five, and they run the gamut in a few interesting axes.... and at least one has to be tailor-made for people who feel burned out on even the idea of amassing wealth and power and levels and carnage...
I dunno, the Tao that can be written in Java is not the true Tao.woodspeople said:Yang is action, creation/destruction, force, speed. Yin is reflection, quiet, growth/decay, endurance, patience. Yang is clashing metal; yin is flowing water. Both are strong and weak; powerful and vulnerable; good and evil; but in different ways. If it has worked for thousands of years it should work well in a game
That's what I meant when I said "why let the computers have all the fun"
It seems like everyone is on board with a duality concept of tech vs. magic/nature cultures as long as there are openings for some "shades of gray". That'd be those little dot things on either end of the yin/yang symbol. ; ) The gray might take the form of a "neutral" culture that maybe we could implement down the road or the ability to become friendly / hostile with an opposing faction based on actions.
So are we still thinking the "tech" culture would be sort of a steampunk based tech? I think it opens a wide range of interesting contraptions that could be "built" as part of the game. Since the game does focus on "creating stuff" this seems to fit in nicely. I can see all manner of steampowered contraptions built by our players. Maybe work a little teslapunk in at the upper scale of the tech tree. And all the metal, oil, steam, smoke, etc. associated with that culture would contrast nicely with our magic/nature one.
Speaking of which; our magic culture seems to be morphing into a druidic based or nature based magic to further contrast our tech culture, and I like that idea a lot. Instead of "building" contraptions in the traditional sense they seem to be more of terraformers and growers. This also fits in excellently with the game's ability to morph landscape.
Maybe some of our artistically minded members can come up with some concept art for our two cultures. We can also begin some work on a little bit of backstory for them; just to flesh them out in our own minds. Then possibly sprinkle tidbits of that information throughout the game.
One thing I thought would be really fun is for history to be revealed to players through archeology. As they dig and terraform the earth, they discover ruins of their own cultures through which bits of story can be told. Perhaps the "war" between these two cultures advanced to a point of near annihilation in the distant past?
So are we still thinking the "tech" culture would be sort of a steampunk based tech? I think it opens a wide range of interesting contraptions that could be "built" as part of the game. Since the game does focus on "creating stuff" this seems to fit in nicely. I can see all manner of steampowered contraptions built by our players. Maybe work a little teslapunk in at the upper scale of the tech tree. And all the metal, oil, steam, smoke, etc. associated with that culture would contrast nicely with our magic/nature one.
Speaking of which; our magic culture seems to be morphing into a druidic based or nature based magic to further contrast our tech culture, and I like that idea a lot. Instead of "building" contraptions in the traditional sense they seem to be more of terraformers and growers. This also fits in excellently with the game's ability to morph landscape.
Maybe some of our artistically minded members can come up with some concept art for our two cultures. We can also begin some work on a little bit of backstory for them; just to flesh them out in our own minds. Then possibly sprinkle tidbits of that information throughout the game.
One thing I thought would be really fun is for history to be revealed to players through archeology. As they dig and terraform the earth, they discover ruins of their own cultures through which bits of story can be told. Perhaps the "war" between these two cultures advanced to a point of near annihilation in the distant past?
Keep in mind that as an open-source game, with features like the ones we've described being implemented through a modding API, the "game" we're describing in this thread would only be one of a series of games, all running on the same engine. The ideas about steampunk would be fine for a mod, maybe even an "official" mod that is maintained inside the terasology project, but the discussion of this mod is tangential to the current development milestones.
Perhaps we could create a board for mod ideas, and move these threads to that board? And we could give the mod we're describing here a project name. I would volunteer the name "Untrue Tao", but only because it appeals to my odd sense of humor.
Perhaps we could create a board for mod ideas, and move these threads to that board? And we could give the mod we're describing here a project name. I would volunteer the name "Untrue Tao", but only because it appeals to my odd sense of humor.
Open source games are *terrible* at slowly revealing secrets to players. I would prefer to see procedurally generated history and ruins rather than spend a lot of time trying to create a history that is just gonna get copy and pasted on a wiki is 20 seconds.
The duality thing might be a flavor, or a beginning to some later phase of development for the game. I think for now we can count it as a placeholder goal simply so we can aim to implement something? We don't have set "Game Modes" yet, but in part that's from not having any actual game yet
Maybe later when we have more content we can spin off the duality bit as a mode (implemented internally as a mod). I think discussing it as a sample implementation for core (for now) would beat trying to split it off into a separate mod effort. Every goal in the "mod" would help further the engine effort.
I'll still say that I like the twist to have the magic/nature race actually be using (green/bio) technology with effects indistinguishable from magic, revering the tech as magical artifacts and insisting it isn't technology (or at least that it has no relation to whatever those brutish steampunk fellows are doing). That'll fit very nicely in a post-apocalyptic world where society was highly advanced before. The steampunk/magic split would likely be purely from post-apocalypse, tho there may well have been factions before the split with similar mindsets (think technocrats vs eco nuts), but from the same society. I don't even know yet if they'll be different races or just factions. I could also easily see them blaming each other for said non-detailed apocalypse, tho the world may have passed so far beyond that time that all memory of it has been lost.
Revealing history - I'd also be hesitant to come up with any concrete history to reveal. I do think having occasional ruins in the world would be nice, and could serve a purpose harvesting old tech as a resource (there's some stuff on that in the big game design doc being drafted). Adding some simple flavor to that might be doable, adding a little description to the technological artifacts found ("Titanium turned out to be the ultimate material to build sporks from")
Maybe later when we have more content we can spin off the duality bit as a mode (implemented internally as a mod). I think discussing it as a sample implementation for core (for now) would beat trying to split it off into a separate mod effort. Every goal in the "mod" would help further the engine effort.
I'll still say that I like the twist to have the magic/nature race actually be using (green/bio) technology with effects indistinguishable from magic, revering the tech as magical artifacts and insisting it isn't technology (or at least that it has no relation to whatever those brutish steampunk fellows are doing). That'll fit very nicely in a post-apocalyptic world where society was highly advanced before. The steampunk/magic split would likely be purely from post-apocalypse, tho there may well have been factions before the split with similar mindsets (think technocrats vs eco nuts), but from the same society. I don't even know yet if they'll be different races or just factions. I could also easily see them blaming each other for said non-detailed apocalypse, tho the world may have passed so far beyond that time that all memory of it has been lost.
Revealing history - I'd also be hesitant to come up with any concrete history to reveal. I do think having occasional ruins in the world would be nice, and could serve a purpose harvesting old tech as a resource (there's some stuff on that in the big game design doc being drafted). Adding some simple flavor to that might be doable, adding a little description to the technological artifacts found ("Titanium turned out to be the ultimate material to build sporks from")
One thing I've learned about building systems on which to build specification-sets (mods, packages), is that it's useful to build one "starter" set for testing and to show people the potential of the system (and also to make the thing more fun sooner). In this way TS could build its cool tech/magic worldview conflict "instantiation" (perhaps with revealed history) without making it the "hard coded" way things have to be.
If that's helpful.
If we go for a steampunk theme, maybe we can have some sort of brits versus indies setting. For example we could have brit-like dwarves vs Indie-like goblins. This would give us some base to draw inspiration from, and help us avoid having the magic culture being to "nice" (both ecologically and technologically if their magic is a super advanced technollogy).
I'm not a big fan of magic as some sort of super technology, it reminds me of a D&D world where you cast a light spell instead of turning on the light, or throw a fire ball instead of using a bazooka. And in the end it only leaves us with 2 competing technollogy, wich is interesting in itself, but then we dont really need to use the word "magic". I like my magic more mysterious. One alternative i see (certainly not the only one) would be to have magic spirit based. Each ressource, even a stone, has some kind of "spirit" something the spell caster has to negociate with in order to draw a benefit (the tech guys dont negociate, they take and use). At higher level the spell caster could invoke beings from other dimensions. Plus the possibility to make potions , magic artefacts, etc... but not in the "combine different physical elements kind of way", more in the "get that particular spirit to act the way i want".
I'm not a big fan of magic as some sort of super technology, it reminds me of a D&D world where you cast a light spell instead of turning on the light, or throw a fire ball instead of using a bazooka. And in the end it only leaves us with 2 competing technollogy, wich is interesting in itself, but then we dont really need to use the word "magic". I like my magic more mysterious. One alternative i see (certainly not the only one) would be to have magic spirit based. Each ressource, even a stone, has some kind of "spirit" something the spell caster has to negociate with in order to draw a benefit (the tech guys dont negociate, they take and use). At higher level the spell caster could invoke beings from other dimensions. Plus the possibility to make potions , magic artefacts, etc... but not in the "combine different physical elements kind of way", more in the "get that particular spirit to act the way i want".
I agree. I think it's important to create a solid distinction between cultures. "Mystery" vs. "Believable (if fantastic) Reality" is a good way to do that. If it's just two competing technologies I think it waters down the distinction. Whatever our "magic" types are doing I think it's important that we don't know how they do it - even if our programmers do ; )glasz said:
I also agree we shouldn't make our nature/magic culture too "lovely". Nature can be as cruel as it is beautiful. Nature eats babies. It freezes helpless creatures in snow. It poisons. It kills slowly. I don't think we have to make them "goblin" like or ugly necessarily; but we should be careful that they don't appear overly pure or sweet. I don't think we want them too "elf" like. Or if we do, then maybe "dark" elves (appearance wise).
Maybe they have beast or plant-like qualities to their appearance? or half-beasts (satyrs, minotaurs, etc.)? I think going too "Swamp Thing" would be bad though. ; )
Maybe they have animal bits, like ears/tails/hooves, but are otherwise humaniod? Imagine a drow/dark elf with a tail and maybe hands/feet with claws. LOL wait, that's a bit like the smurf people of Avatar isn't it? OK, make em green and then it's totally original!
Just throwing out ideas. =) Feel free to criticize and discuss.
Oh don't get me wrong, I like magic and totally see it entering the scene sooner or later. I expect to see a lot more than two factions of sentients with just two takes of the same thing
The reason I like steampunk + indistinguishable from magic tech factions is because it works with a much more narrow concept, that might make a real nice setup for a milestone goal on the way to something truly epic. And let me highlight the indistinguishable again - we wouldn't tell the player, and the creatures of that race would truly and completely believe they were dealing with magical artifacts (and the game wouldn't tell them otherwise).
At first I wasn't even thinking the player would start with a "racial tool" either, just eventually develop something. Maybe have a minor inherent ability that would bias them toward the faction's norms. The magic people could be descended from forerunners injected with nanobots which explain their ability to affect matter in a different fashion, but generations ago they forgot why. Then they built a divine creation story on top of it, consider nature sacred, and fight viciously to protect it - just on normal terms they're peaceful.
I still would like to see that ultimate mixture of DF, DK, etc down the road where you'd have dozens of different takes on the background culture and abilities of different sentient races. True magic, fake magic, divine magic, all kinds of tech, etc. But as has been pointed out previously I'm sort of crazy and that's a tall order for "the game" - instead aiming for something smaller just as an implementation target would help us reach that faster as a more realistic goal. That shouldn't stop us from coming up with all sorts of fantastical things on the side
That sort of leads back to this initial "thing" becoming a mod / game mode, that we then build beyond for the next big thing (fortress mode?)
On the other hand I could indeed just be crazy and that might be a terrible idea. Not sure I'd want the game to type-cast itself. Discuss!
The reason I like steampunk + indistinguishable from magic tech factions is because it works with a much more narrow concept, that might make a real nice setup for a milestone goal on the way to something truly epic. And let me highlight the indistinguishable again - we wouldn't tell the player, and the creatures of that race would truly and completely believe they were dealing with magical artifacts (and the game wouldn't tell them otherwise).
At first I wasn't even thinking the player would start with a "racial tool" either, just eventually develop something. Maybe have a minor inherent ability that would bias them toward the faction's norms. The magic people could be descended from forerunners injected with nanobots which explain their ability to affect matter in a different fashion, but generations ago they forgot why. Then they built a divine creation story on top of it, consider nature sacred, and fight viciously to protect it - just on normal terms they're peaceful.
I still would like to see that ultimate mixture of DF, DK, etc down the road where you'd have dozens of different takes on the background culture and abilities of different sentient races. True magic, fake magic, divine magic, all kinds of tech, etc. But as has been pointed out previously I'm sort of crazy and that's a tall order for "the game" - instead aiming for something smaller just as an implementation target would help us reach that faster as a more realistic goal. That shouldn't stop us from coming up with all sorts of fantastical things on the side
That sort of leads back to this initial "thing" becoming a mod / game mode, that we then build beyond for the next big thing (fortress mode?)
On the other hand I could indeed just be crazy and that might be a terrible idea. Not sure I'd want the game to type-cast itself. Discuss!