WIP [LaS] Light and Shadow - Art Discussion

[SuperSnark]

Perfect! The bounce in the hat is just right. I like the head bob too.

 

[Cervator]

By the way maybe, since we're ont he verge of having the models in game, it would be a good time to start a list of required animations.

We can probably use the Oreons as a guide here. Currently the miniion AnimationComponent they use cover the following animations:

• Walk (unsure what would be involved in supporting different speeds - code or separate anim?)
• Idle
• Attack
• Die
• Fade in
• Fade out
• Work
• Terraform
• (Random - supports a list of misc animates to shuffle through when idle)

Some of the L&S pieces have two attacks, but maybe that can just ride on "work" or "terraform" - certainly the queen's tower blasting laser can be considered a sort of terraforming

 

[glasz]

what are fade in and fade out?

 

[Skaldarnar]

As suggested in IRC already, I would add a "carry" animation.

Walk -> (Fetch) -> Carry -> Work/Terraform​

 

[glasz]

ATM they only have weapons, so the probably need some tools, rather than doing it with their little hand for those kind of tasks.

 

[UberWaffe]

Basically the power would be balanced equally between factions in terms of needs. It would simply require progressing farther into enemy territory to acquire materials for higher level crafting. More risk, more reward ...

Perhaps a simple mix of faction specific resources, neutral resources, and converting enemy faction resources could work.

Spoiler

Something like:
Faction specific:
Each faction has a basic colour, basic shapes and food. Your own specific resources are used in a 1:1 ratio on both sides.
You can convert opposing colour, shapes and food into yours at a ratio of 2:1.
(That way, you can steal resources from the enemy but it will not be as efficient as mining your own. But useful once you are within their area.)

Neutral resources:
Advanced shapes and colours. Used in a 1:1 ratio for both sides.
Perhaps even the "magic" resource.
Though for magic I would, in order to change up mechanics and for the sake of diversity, make this gathered by holding key control points. Kind of like king-of-the-hill or FPS domination type game-play (points over time as long as point is held, perhaps only if at least held for longer than 30 seconds).


Using only shapes and colours also breaks a bit from the typical "metals and woods" flavour, despite being in essence the exact same system.

In regard to the overall gameplay style... snip ...I think ultimately though you would still have to pick a faction and be colored appropriately at the start of the game.

First attempt at MoSCoW requirements for the above post. Split into first test version and first release version.
[EDIT]
Moved to this thread instead: Light & Shadow - First Module
[/EDIT]

 

[glasz]

Ideally, also limited, the map should remain procedural, i can imagine some kind of game with an end, the taking of the ennemy castle, but on a long time period, weeks or months. Once the party is over, you could generate a new map and start a new game. There could be beginners map and more chalenging advanced maps, maps fort short games and maps for long games. Players invovlvment could be to review the troops everyday, see if everything is going ok, give new instructions if necessary, in a casual gaming mode. If the player want to spend more time than what is necessary to manage the troops, he'll have the classis MC like stuff to do, explore, build, etc...

 

[glasz]

Hada little blender rendering fun. An occasion to realize that i need to homogenize the models scales ( i did a quick and dirty temporary scaling for the rendering), that the red queen seem to be somehow the wrong red, and that we just need the red knight for the red army to be complete.

Btw A'nW , do you plan to make animations for the red king, or does someone else need to do it?

anyway :

 

[Cervator]

Nice army

We need the red bishop too, in addition to the knight, but yeah otherwise nearly done with that side.

Fade in / fade out animations I am not sure are in use but from comments I can understand the intent was for spawning and teleportation (for confused miniions giving up and cheating to get somewhere). Carry .. we could probably cheat and just have a block float in the air in front of or above the model? For now, that is.

Map type and duration - I certainly don't mind bigger and/or procedural maps, but am focused on starting out small, where a tiny static world and fast games (as short as a couple hours) make the overall approach easier. Scaling up from there I'm throwing in the "fancy" basket for later

 

[SuperSnark]

 

[UberWaffe]

As a minor idea, what if we make the power lines look like the snakes from the board game "Snakes & Ladders"?
Or perhaps a long alternating line of Tic-Tac-Toe?

That should keep with the overall style and look pretty neat.

 

[Skaldarnar]

What do you think about this poker chip? The texture is of total size 48x48, so it would fit for a 3x3x1 tree crone crown.

Moreover, I created simple textures for classic white, red and black dice.​

--

--

Now working on some domino stones

Edit: No dominoes yet, but heart crops look satisfying already Somebody out there who wants to implement the growth process?

​

Edit 2: Now both side got their vegetables Spade crops!​

 

[glasz]

Skaldarnar Maybe the color could evolve with the growth reaching the final color with the final height?

 

[Skaldarnar]

glasz, I've updated the blossoms to evolve in color. I hope that corresponds to your idea

I've pushed the changes and textures to the model, so you can play around with it and give me some feedback

 

[glasz]

very nice, yes that's what i had in mind

 

[Cervator]

Skaldarnar - poker chip looks great. Want to try throwing 9 blocks together and placing them in the world to see how it looks at a tree? Probably will need some block shapes, but maybe the basic slope is good enough.

UberWaffe - some sort of game-themed cable could be neat. Google search for Snakes and Ladders didn't give me a good image of how the snake there could work though? But there's bound to be a ton of suitable board game pieces like that out there

 

[UberWaffe]

I figured that non-end cable parts would just look like the middle part of a snake.
All end cable parts to the North, West and Up could be snake heads. This would include intersections.
All end cable parts to the South, East and Down could be snake tails. This would include intersections.



Super ugly paint sketch, but shows the basic idea of a single 'power snake' and multiple connected 'power snakes'.

[EDIT]
Since it seems the L&S - First Module thread is being reserved for fixed decisions, I'll move the latest draft of the requirements list here:

Sidenote on MoSCoW:

Spoiler

[+] Means a new requirement.
[-] Means a requirement was removed.
[~] Means the requirement was slightly changed (or just reworded).
An requirement changing priorities would be shown as a [-] on the old priority, and a [+] in the new priority.

For those who might not have googled "moscow requirements" yet...
Link: MoSCoW
MUST: Means "This must be in or the version is not done and cannot be released"
SHOULD: Means "This really should be in there, and unless you have a really good reason why not, the version isn't done.". Typically these are only cut if there are no COULD to cut, and there are really good reasons why you want to drop it. (Behind schedule NOT being a good enough reason. The schedule should then be adjusted. But "Terasology game engine cannot do this yet" would be a good enough reason.)
COULD: Means "Nice to have", typically these are dropped if a version needs to be released (i.e. we do not want to adjust the schedule). In such a case, the requirement would probably just move to the next release.
WOULD LIKE TO: Means "Nice to have, but not in this version. Somewhere in the future." Or "Idea bucket" if you will. These do not automatically become COULD for the next version.

--First test version requirements--

Spoiler

(Bare bones requirements, just to get something started to work from)
MUST:

• Have 2 factions
• Have 1 basic map layout
• Start player as part of the red faction
• Singleplayer only

SHOULD:

• Have a main keep for each faction, loss of which results in defeat
• Spawn troops for each faction, that attack the opposing faction

COULD:

• Have multiple types of units
• Have multiple types of buildings
• Have pathing across complex terrain

WOULD LIKE TO:

• [-] Have basic resource gathering

--First playable alpha version requirements--

Spoiler

(Bare bones requirements that would still provide a basic playable game)
MUST:

• Have 2 factions
• Have 1 basic map layout
• Singleplayer support
• Multiplayer support for at least 2 players
• Allow players to pick faction
• Have a main keep for each faction, loss of which results in defeat
• Spawn troops for each faction, that attack the opposing faction
• Have AI for spawned troops that:
  • Will advance on enemy keep position
  • Attack enemy structures encountered
  • Attack enemy units encountered

SHOULD:

• Have spawning controlled by multi-block structures
• Have these spawning multi-block structures limited to within a certain radius of faction keep
• Allow player to construct more of these multi-block structures, within limits

COULD:

• Have multiple types of units
• Have pathing across complex terrain

WOULD LIKE TO:

• N/A

--First full release version requirements--

Spoiler

MUST:

• Have at least 2 factions.
• Have at least 1 map layout.
• Allow single or multiplayer
• Allow player to:
  • Join a specific faction
  • Gather resources
  • Engage in combat
  • Build
  • Quest
  • Donate gathered resources to factions
• Crafted items include:
  • Tools
  • Weapons
  • Armour
• Have construction include the following aspects:
  • Semi-freeform (according to rules, not exact blueprints)
  • Affect faction statistics and production
  • Obstacles and traps for enemy factions
• Gathering resources include the following aspects:
  • Allow upgrading of resource sources
• Questing include the following aspects:
  • Special resources and items not normally gathered by factions
• Let factions have the following aspects:
  • Squad spawn rates
  • Squad make ups
  • Technology level
  • Stored resources & magic
• Have command and orders allow:
  • Specific attack targets
  • Specific defense targets
  • Specific crafting tasks
  • Specific building tasks
  • Specific gathering tasks
• [+]Have AI for NPC troops that:
  • [+] Will advance on enemy keep position
  • [+] Attack enemy structures encountered
  • [+] Attack enemy units encountered
  • [+]Respond to combat conditions, such as:
    • [+] Waiting for reinforcements before storming a strong defense
    • [+] Try and find paths around traps
    • [+] Try and match the right unit type to the right fight
• [+]Have AI for NPC's that:
  • [+] Can gather resources automatically
  • [+] Repair damaged friendly structures
  • [+] Craft automatically as required
  • [+?] Build structures to automatically expand the faction
• Have combat include the following aspects:
  • Anything is destroyable
  • Order friendly faction units
  • Directly control friendly faction units
  • Siege units
  • Defensive structures (Towers, walls, traps, etc.)

SHOULD:

• Have multiple maps supporting2 factions
• Have partial procedural generation of maps
• Crafted items include:
  • Items providing faction bonuses
• Have the following physics:
  • Structures collapse from structural integrity failure
  • Structure collapses affect nearby terrain and entities
• Have construction include the following aspects:
  • Variations within a structure should affects its indirect statistics (bonuses, etc.). Better variations means better bonuses.
• Allow player to:
  • Customize their avatar in skills and abilities
  • Craft items
  • Donate crafted items to factions
• Crafted items include:
  • Tools
  • Weapons
  • Armour
• Have a power system that:
  • Allows at least 1 way to generate power
  • Interacts with various structures to boost their core function
  • Is fully constructable & destructible
• Place emphasis on the central "contested" area by:
  • Having central area contain powerful artifacts for the players to use
• [+]Place emphasis on the map "fringe" areas by:
  • [+] Having neutral structures that provide benefits to the controlling faction scattered about these areas.

COULD:

• Have full procedural generation of maps.
• Questing include the following aspects:
  • Gathering neutral units to join the faction
• Allow player to:
  • Customize their avatar in appearance
• Have a power system that:
  • Allows multiple ways of generation power
  • Interacts with various structures to give them new functions

WOULD LIKE TO:

• Have up to 4 factions
• Have multiple maps supporting up to 4 factions
• Allow player to:
  • Customize their avatar in appearance
• Let factions have the following aspects:
  • Stored magic
  • Magic level
• Have command and orders allow:
  • Special magic strikes and spells using faction magic

As always, let me know about any required changes to these lists.

Important sidenote:

Spoiler

Once everyone has mostly agreed on the first full release version requirements, I'll draw up a draft roadmap to get to it. (I.e. what the requirements for each iterative version will be).

Even if the roadmap changes entirely, I've found that in projects things get resolved more quickly if you just draft something that people can then change, as opposed to trying to decide on everything and then draft.

So if it seems like I am taking over I apologize. Not my intent.
Just trying to nail down the core of the project (i.e. the 'What do we want from this?')

Also, for requirements I attempt to disassociate the 'how this is done' with the 'what should it result in'. And also I try to write requirements as simple wording that conveys 'one concept' per requirement.
So if I mangle a requirement, please again forgive me. I'm not trying to twist any visions, just jotting them down as I understand them.

Now, with the 'Sorry about your toes, I'm not a good dancer' pre-apology out of the way.
Let us get to realizing L&S's awesome potential!

Lastly, can I get a quick appraisal by everyone on if the 'First playable alpha' and 'First full release' requirements are good? (i.e. most of what we want is there).
I'd like to draft a first pass at the roadmap.

 

[Skaldarnar]

UberWaffe, I highly appreciate your MoSCoW-specifications - they help a lot! Here're just some suggestions:

--First test version requirements--

Spoiler

Must:

• "keep" sounds a bit big for the first test version, I think "block" should suffice.
• "at least 2 mobs, no animations" - floating pawns should be enough for a test

Should:

• dunno if the mobs should be able to attack each other... I would rather say "mobs should walk to the enemy's base and destroy the enemy's block" -> combat system for first alpha release as must? combat for first test as could or even would....?

Could:

• animations
• basic combat (player vs. mobs, only close combat)

--First playable alpha version requirements--

Spoiler

Must:

• do we really need multiplayer support as a must here already? Would it make sense to put "either multiplayer for at least 2 players or singleplayer with enemy AI" in?
• "Attack enemy structures encountered" - either put in "define players structures" or move that point to a weaker level (mayber to should or could, since I would place multi block structures in should)

Should:

• "multi block structures (spawn portals, player structures, ...)"
• move the restrictions you mentioned for multi block structures (MBS) from should to could? so, in the first place we want to have MBS, secondly we want them to do something, and thirdly they should be placeable by the player, everything more would be a bonus for a fist alpha version

Could:

• "combat System"
• "animations"

Would:

• resources, such like minerals, crops, ....
• tools and weapons
• basic crafting
• sound effects, graphical effects
• more evolved questing

I will think about the full release one bit more

 

[Cervator]

On combat I don't think we'll have anything as fancy as what aherber was working on for a while but we could have a more basic form of combat. Some of the GelCubes do actually kill the player in the current Portals module, so there's precedent for super-basic combat. It just isn't very pretty.

Maybe we could put that in the first or second milestone then upgrade to better combat over time.

 

[UberWaffe]

Sidenote on MoSCoW:

Spoiler

[+] Means a new requirement.
[-] Means a requirement was removed.
[~] Means the requirement was slightly changed (or just reworded).
An requirement changing priorities would be shown as a [-] on the old priority, and a [+] in the new priority.

--First test version requirements--

Spoiler

(Bare bones requirements, just to get something started to work from)
MUST:

• Have 2 factions
• Have 1 basic map layout
• Start player as part of the red faction
• Singleplayer only

SHOULD:

• [~] Have a main keep block for each faction, loss of which results in defeat
• [~] Spawn troops for each faction, that attack the opposing faction's main block

COULD:

• Have multiple types of units
• Have multiple types of buildings
• Have pathing across complex terrain
• [+] Have basic animations for units
• [+] Have basic combat for player vs. NPC

WOULD LIKE TO:

• [-] Have basic resource gathering

--First playable alpha version requirements--

Spoiler

(Bare bones requirements that would still provide a basic playable game)
MUST:

• Have 2 factions
• Have 1 basic map layout
• Singleplayer support
• [-] Multiplayer support for at least 2 players
• Allow players to pick faction
• Have a main keep for each faction, loss of which results in defeat
• Spawn troops for each faction, that attack the opposing faction
• [+] Have basic combat for player vs. NPC
• Have AI for spawned troops that:
  • Will advance on enemy keep position
  • [-] Attack enemy structures encountered
  • Attack enemy units encountered

SHOULD:

• Have spawning controlled by multi-block structures
• Have these spawning multi-block structures limited to within a certain radius of faction keep
• [-] Allow player to construct more of these multi-block structures, within limits
• [+] Have animations for units

COULD:

• Have multiple types of units
• Have pathing across complex terrain
• [+]Allow player to construct more of these multi-block structures, within limits:
  • [+] To be active, must be placed within the keep radius
  • [+] To be active, must be built according to the multi-block predefined shape
• [+]Have AI for spawned troops that:
  • [+] Attack enemy structures encountered
• [+] Multiplayer support for at least 2 players
• [+]Have full combat system that:
  • [+] Includes both melee and ranged combat
  • [+] Includes melee and ranged weapons for the player
  • [+] Includes combat between NPC units

WOULD LIKE TO:

• [+]Have resources implemented that:
  • [+] Can be gathered by the player
  • [+] Can be gathered by NPC's
  • [+] Includes at least 1 food resource (crops) for each faction
  • [+] Includes at least 1 basic resource (trees) for each faction
  • [+] Includes at least 1 advanced resource (minerals) for each faction
  • [+] Includes at least 1 rare resource (mineral)
• [+]Have tools and equipment implemented that:
  • [+] Include harvesting tools for all resource types
  • [+] Include melee weapons for the player
  • [+] Include ranged weapons for the player
  • [+] Include weapon upgrades for NPCs
  • [+] Include harvesting tool upgrades for NPCs
• [+] Include basic crafting
• [+] Include sounds
• [+] Include music
• [+] Include graphical effects
• [+] Include questing

--First full release version requirements--

Spoiler

MUST:

• Have at least 2 factions.
• Have at least 1 map layout.
• Allow single or multiplayer
• Allow player to:
  • Join a specific faction
  • Gather resources
  • Engage in combat
  • Build
  • Quest
  • Donate gathered resources to factions
• Crafted items include:
  • Tools
  • Weapons
  • Armour
• Have construction include the following aspects:
  • Semi-freeform (according to rules, not exact blueprints)
  • Affect faction statistics and production
  • Obstacles and traps for enemy factions
• [+]Have resources implemented that:
  • [+] Can be gathered by the player
  • [+] Can be gathered by NPC's
  • [+] Includes at least 1 food resource (crops) for each faction
  • [+] Includes at least 1 basic resource (trees) for each faction
  • [+] Includes at least 1 advanced resource (minerals) for each faction
  • [+] Includes at least 1 rare resource (mineral)
• [+]Have tools and equipment implemented that:
  • [+] Include harvesting tools for all resource types
  • [+] Include melee weapons for the player
  • [+] Include ranged weapons for the player
  • [+] Include weapon upgrades for NPCs
  • [+] Include harvesting tool upgrades for NPCs
• Gathering resources include the following aspects:
  • Allow upgrading of resource sources
• Questing include the following aspects:
  • Special resources and items not normally gathered by factions
• Let factions have the following aspects:
  • Squad spawn rates
  • Squad make ups
  • Technology level
  • Stored resources & magic
• Have command and orders allow:
  • Specific attack targets
  • Specific defense targets
  • Specific crafting tasks
  • Specific building tasks
  • Specific gathering tasks
• [+]Have AI for NPC troops that:
  • [+] Will advance on enemy keep position
  • [+] Attack enemy structures encountered
  • [+] Attack enemy units encountered
  • [+]Respond to combat conditions, such as:
    • [+] Waiting for reinforcements before storming a strong defense
    • [+] Try and find paths around traps
    • [+] Try and match the right unit type to the right fight
• [+]Have AI for NPC's that:
  • [+] Can gather resources automatically
  • [+] Repair damaged friendly structures
  • [+] Craft automatically as required
  • [+?] Build structures to automatically expand the faction
• Have combat include the following aspects:
  • Anything is destroyable
  • Order friendly faction units
  • Directly control friendly faction units
  • Siege units
  • Defensive structures (Towers, walls, traps, etc.)

SHOULD:

• Have multiple maps supporting2 factions
• Have partial procedural generation of maps
• Crafted items include:
  • Items providing faction bonuses
• Have the following physics:
  • Structures collapse from structural integrity failure
  • Structure collapses affect nearby terrain and entities
• Have construction include the following aspects:
  • Variations within a structure should affects its indirect statistics (bonuses, etc.). Better variations means better bonuses.
• Allow player to:
  • Customize their avatar in skills and abilities
  • Craft items
  • Donate crafted items to factions
• Crafted items include:
  • Tools
  • Weapons
  • Armour
• Have a power system that:
  • Allows at least 1 way to generate power
  • Interacts with various structures to boost their core function
  • Is fully constructable & destructible
• Place emphasis on the central "contested" area by:
  • Having central area contain powerful artifacts for the players to use
• [+]Place emphasis on the map "fringe" areas by:
  • [+] Having neutral structures that provide benefits to the controlling faction scattered about these areas.
• [+] Include sounds
• [+] Include music
• [+] Include graphical effects

COULD:

• Have full procedural generation of maps.
• Questing include the following aspects:
  • Gathering neutral units to join the faction
• Allow player to:
  • Customize their avatar in appearance
• Have a power system that:
  • Allows multiple ways of generation power
  • Interacts with various structures to give them new functions
• [+]Have an advanced combat system that includes:
  • [+?] Multiple types of damage and armor
  • [+?] Include status effects
  • [+] Include armor that reduces damage taken

WOULD LIKE TO:

• Have up to 4 factions
• Have multiple maps supporting up to 4 factions
• Allow player to:
  • Customize their avatar in appearance
• Let factions have the following aspects:
  • Stored magic
  • Magic level
• Have command and orders allow:
  • Special magic strikes and spells using faction magic

I made the changed suggested, though I stuck combat as a MUST rather than SHOULD. Mainly because I think that combat is one of those 'assumed to be there' things people would expect.