WIP [LaS] Light and Shadow - Art Discussion

[Skaldarnar]

Here, have some cards!

Spoiler

 

[Marcin Sciesinski]

As for multi-block structures (spawner, etc) , I was thinking - that if they fall out of player's "area of control" for any reason - they should be destroyed, like in "Settlers" rather than become inactive. So, in the future, if an opponent destroys a fortified structure that increases your "area of control" (say turret-tower) it will destroy all other structures that were in the lost "area of control".

 

[Skaldarnar]

Instead of destroying them directly, I would let the player some time to reconquer the said area. Therefore, structures without the reach of the player's territories would take slowly damage until destroyed (and are deactivated). If the player can reconquer the area (either by building up/repairing its own structure or by destroying a dominating opposing one), the structures will work as before.

 

[SuperSnark]

Here's a take on the "Adventurer" player character. Bit swashbuckler-y.

Ideally I'd like to be able to have a female player character model as well and perhaps the ability to swap out three main body parts - the head/hat, body, and foot, so that players could mix and match a bit.

This character would have some unique possessions that the standard chess piece would lack.

Ideas for inventory might be:
-spyglass
-map
-builder's square

Size wise this would be the same height as the Fool

 

[Cervator]

Looks cool. It doesn't really look heavily gender-specific to me? Really only the King and Queen do.

 

[Cervator]

Quick notes from IRC with nh_99 and SuperSnark from IM:

• Block shape for the glyphs with shiny new hi-res textures on there OR obelisk-sized slabs instead (multi-block? full model?).
• Possible alternative L&S victory condition - find all the slabs and put them in the home keep (and steal the ones from the other side - wouldn't need a starting MacGuffin in that case)
• Favors exploration early on rather than pvp, could be a nice side thing other than straight "kill the other keep"
• Could be two victory conditions, find all or defeat enemy (destroy keep)
• Could simply seed the glyphs on blocks in sunlight, should all be findable
• With obelisk-sized glyphs instead player could get a key to the white wand room by visiting and "reading" all the glyphs
• L&S the Game Mode could actually have multiple play styles? Like most FPSes. Straight deathmatch, CTF with MacGuffins, glyph exploration, domination (hold control points for score), etc

 

[SuperSnark]

Sidenote on MoSCoW:
I made the changed suggested, though I stuck combat as a MUST rather than SHOULD. Mainly because I think that combat is one of those 'assumed to be there' things people would expect.

Thanks for compiling all this UberWaffe! It's actually nice to see an organized list of requirements. =)

 

[glasz]

basilix is back ! And he made us a black bishop !

the texture is temporary, i've been told it needs improvements

He also raised an intersting point : should the black team be kind of blocky/squary rather than smooth/cylindrical ? I hadnt thought of it and made the black pawn cylindrical, but now that basilix pointed it to me i think he may be right. Your thoughts SuperSnark?

 

[Cervator]

Woohoo! WB basilix ! And nice work

glasz - sounds reasonable to me to do a split like that. SuperSnark earlier was talking about making the black team less symmetrical, which might go fine with that as well.

In other news: Black team flies Caldari

 

[SuperSnark]

Yep, that was my intention glasz. Black is angular, and less symmetrical. Red is rounder, more symmetrical. These aren't completely hard/fast rules, but that's the general intention.

The black pawn, yes, I was thinking if you looked at him from the top down, his body would be a square/diamond shape. The way the texture is mapped it pretty much looks like that anyway though. =) Just looking at him again, maybe an angular hex pattern, from the top down? I like the number of angles on the shoulder area on your texture glasz.

Really like the bishop basilix. Thanks!

 

[glasz]

Ok i'll try some modifications on the black pawn.

 

[SuperSnark]

 

[Skaldarnar]

Oh, I see I need to do those red and black wood as well as the shingles I promised Should I keep to 16x16 textures or do you think 32x32 would/could yield a better visual result? I can try to mix them, but not sure how that would look then...

 

[UberWaffe]

SuperSnark: Quick question. Would it not make sense to first get the blueprints, 'place' them somewhere (creating a ghost image), and then the player fills in the ghost blueprint?

Once done, the player then whacks it with a champagne bottle or something to check that the structure is correctly built and then become active.

Just thinking of avoiding those 'ARGH! Missed that little brick corner again!' moments.

 

[glasz]

It would be interesting to find some way to have buildings, fullfilling a certain functions, have different shapes, to avoid unifomization. Like some necessary core elements (the blueprint) on wich one could add as he wishes and find convenient.

 

[SuperSnark]

UberWaffe: I don't want to limit the player on what he builds or how he builds. Conformity of function is good, but so is free-form building. So, if your blacksmith shop is built to look differently, great.

If you're missing a few bricks or decide to put in a window, that'd be totally OK. You'd just have to hit certain criteria - like a threshold, for the structure to be considered a building:
1. Enclosed
2. Certain height
3. Roofed

So, to keep the player from being confused, I think the game should provide feedback. After you build an enclosed structure you get a little message on your game UI that lets you know you've done so.

When you've built it a certain height and roofed it, you get feedback that you've got a an official "building".

Adding the blueprint, basically slaps on the "function" part of the structure you've built. So in the case of the little house above, adding the Smithy module gives it a smoke stack, a little side shop, a weapon rack, an anvil, etc. Essentially it puts the fine touches onto the unique structure you've built.

I'm not sure how hard or easy that would be to implement. If it's too tough, we can scale back the idea. But it's always good to throw out some ideas.

Freeform building + blueprints to add certain functions or structures is what we're shooting for I think. And freeform destruction of course. ; )

I think in terms of destroying a structure, you'd also have to meet a certain threshold. Like if it's 50% destroyed maybe it operates at 50% capacity, but if it's 75% destroyed it's toast. Something to think about

 

[SuperSnark]

The White Chamber

 

[UberWaffe]

MoSCoW update to reflect the few new suggestions. All in full release section.

Spoiler

Sidenote on MoSCoW:

Spoiler

[+] Means a new requirement.
[-] Means a requirement was removed.
[~] Means the requirement was slightly changed (or just reworded).
[?] Means the requirement is undecided, and requires debate/revision.
An requirement changing priorities would be shown as a [-] on the old priority, and a [+] in the new priority.

--First test version requirements--

Spoiler

(Bare bones requirements, just to get something started to work from)
MUST:

• Have 2 factions
• Have 1 basic map layout
• Start player as part of the red faction
• Singleplayer only

SHOULD:

• Have a main block for each faction, loss of which results in defeat
• Spawn troops for each faction, that attack the opposing faction's main block

COULD:

• Have multiple types of units
• Have multiple types of buildings
• Have pathing across complex terrain
• Have basic animations for units
• Have basic combat for player vs. NPC

WOULD LIKE TO:

• N/A

--First playable alpha version requirements--

Spoiler

(Bare bones requirements that would still provide a basic playable game)
MUST:

• Have 2 factions
• Have 1 basic map layout
• Singleplayer support
• Allow players to pick faction
• Have a main keep for each faction, loss of which results in defeat
• Spawn troops for each faction, that attack the opposing faction
• Have basic combat for player vs. NPC
• Have AI for spawned troops that:
  • Will advance on enemy keep position
  • Attack enemy units encountered

SHOULD:

• Have spawning controlled by multi-block structures
• Have these spawning multi-block structures limited to within a certain radius of faction keep
• Have animations for units

COULD:

• Have multiple types of units
• Have pathing across complex terrain
• Allow player to construct more of these multi-block structures, within limits:
  • To be active, must be placed within the keep radius
  • To be active, must be built according to the multi-block predefined shape
• Have AI for spawned troops that:
  • Attack enemy structures encountered
• Multiplayer support for at least 2 players
• Have full combat system that:
  • Includes both melee and ranged combat
  • Includes melee and ranged weapons for the player
  • Includes combat between NPC units

WOULD LIKE TO:

• Have resources implemented that:
  • Can be gathered by the player
  • Can be gathered by NPC's
  • Includes at least 1 food resource (crops) for each faction
  • Includes at least 1 basic resource (trees) for each faction
  • Includes at least 1 advanced resource (minerals) for each faction
  • Includes at least 1 rare resource (mineral)
• Have tools and equipment implemented that:
  • Include harvesting tools for all resource types
  • Include melee weapons for the player
  • Include ranged weapons for the player
  • Include weapon upgrades for NPCs
  • Include harvesting tool upgrades for NPCs
• Include basic crafting
• Include sounds
• Include music
• Include graphical effects
• Include questing

--First full release version requirements--

Spoiler

MUST:

• Have at least 2 factions.
• Have at least 1 map layout.
• Allow single or multiplayer
• Allow player to:
  • Join a specific faction
  • Gather resources
  • Engage in combat
  • Build
  • Quest
  • Donate gathered resources to factions
• Crafted items include:
  • Tools
  • Weapons
  • Armour
• [~] Have structures that: Have construction include the following aspects:
  • [-] Semi-freeform (according to rules, not exact blueprints)
  • [+] Can created using blueprints that:
    • [+] Allow the player to build freeform as long as basic rules are adhered to (Enclosed, roofed, etc.)
    • [+] Are items applied to the freeform structures using right-click.
    • [+] Inform the player of missing/required elements.
  • [+] Take damage over time (even getting destroyed) if outside team's control area
  • [+] Project a control area if designated as a area controller (Keep, Towers, etc.)
  • [+?] Take rapid damage if inside enemy control area, and not within own control area
  • Affect faction statistics and production
  • Obstacles and traps for enemy factions
• Have resources implemented that:
  • Can be gathered by the player
  • Can be gathered by NPC's
  • Includes at least 1 food resource (crops) for each faction
  • Includes at least 1 basic resource (trees) for each faction
  • Includes at least 1 advanced resource (minerals) for each faction
  • Includes at least 1 rare resource (mineral)
• Have tools and equipment implemented that:
  • Include harvesting tools for all resource types
  • Include melee weapons for the player
  • Include ranged weapons for the player
  • Include weapon upgrades for NPCs
  • Include harvesting tool upgrades for NPCs
• Gathering resources include the following aspects:
  • Allow upgrading of resource sources
• Questing include the following aspects:
  • Special resources and items not normally gathered by factions
• Let factions have the following aspects:
  • Squad spawn rates
  • Squad make ups
  • Technology level
  • Stored resources
• Have command and orders allow:
  • Specific attack targets
  • Specific defense targets
  • Specific crafting tasks
  • Specific building tasks
  • Specific gathering tasks
• Have AI for NPC troops that:
  • Will advance on enemy keep position
  • Attack enemy structures encountered
  • Attack enemy units encountered
  • Respond to combat conditions, such as:
    • Waiting for reinforcements before storming a strong defense
    • Try and find paths around traps
    • Try and match the right unit type to the right fight
• Have AI for NPC's that:
  • Can gather resources automatically
  • Repair damaged friendly structures
  • Craft automatically as required
  • [?] Build structures to automatically expand the faction
• Have combat include the following aspects:
  • Anything is destroyable
  • Order friendly faction units
  • Directly control friendly faction units
  • Siege units
  • Defensive structures (Towers, walls, traps, etc.)

SHOULD:

• Have multiple maps supporting 2 factions
• Have partial procedural generation of maps
• Crafted items include:
  • Items providing faction bonuses
• Have the following physics:
  • Structures collapse from structural integrity failure
  • Structure collapses affect nearby terrain and entities
• Have construction include the following aspects:
  • Variations within a structure should affects its indirect statistics (bonuses, etc.). Better variations means better bonuses.
• [+]Questing include the following aspects:
  • [+] The white chamber (glyph quest) and white specter super artifact
  • [+] White specter can turn targeted unit into white pawn (neutral and non-aggressive). Can be used to achieve easter-egg victory.
• Allow player to:
  • [-] Customize their avatar in skills and abilities
  • Craft items
  • Donate crafted items to factions
• Crafted items include:
  • Tools
  • Weapons
  • Armour
• Have a power system that:
  • Allows at least 1 way to generate power
  • Interacts with various structures to boost their core function
  • Is fully constructable & destructible
• Place emphasis on the central "contested" area by:
  • Having central area contain powerful artifacts for the players to use
• Place emphasis on the map "fringe" areas by:
  • Having neutral structures that provide benefits to the controlling faction scattered about these areas.
• Include sounds
• Include music
• Include graphical effects
• Have AI for NPC's that:
  • [+?] Build structures to automatically expand the faction town (aesthetic to represent the player actions improving the team)

COULD:

• Have full procedural generation of maps.
• Questing include the following aspects:
  • Gathering neutral units to join the faction
• Allow player to:
  • [~] Customize their avatar in appearance (Three main sections: Head, chest, base)
  • [+?] Customize their avatar in skills and abilities
• Have a power system that:
  • Allows multiple ways of generation power
  • Interacts with various structures to give them new functions
• Have an advanced combat system that includes:
  • Multiple types of damage and armor
  • [?] Include status effects
  • Include armor that reduces damage taken
• [+?] Allow NPC army unit spawning to be enabled/disabled
• [+]Allow victory conditions above and beyond 'conquest' that:
  • [+] Can be individually enabled/disabled
  • [+] Collect all specific artifacts and bring to keep for victory (Exploration condition)
  • [+] Kill enemy heroes (adventurers) a player-defined number of times (Deathmatch condition)
  • [+] Capture enemy scepter (flag) a player-defined number of times (Capture the flag condition)
  • [+] Hold shrines (domination points) until reaching a player-defined score (King of the hill)

WOULD LIKE TO:

• [?] Have up to 4 factions
• [?] Have multiple maps supporting up to 4 factions
• [?]Let factions have the following aspects:
  • [?] Stored magic
  • [?] Magic level
• [?]Have command and orders allow:
  • [?] Special magic strikes and spells using faction magic

I've noticed I forgot the add a [?] to several requirements I had added without discussion. Whoops. Done now.
Please review and mercilessly savage these.

Also, I somehow missed ever putting the 'White scepter and white shrine' quest requirement in. Fixed. Bad bad, UberWaffe!

On the alternative victory conditions, I added that they can be individually enabled/disabled by the host/player. (So you could theoretically have all of them enabled at once, if that could make sense).

However, how about being able to also set them to "Conquest helper" mode (So three possible settings per condition), in which completing the said objective does not automatically result in victory, but some boost for your team/penalty for the enemy team?
For example, every time you capture the enemy specter the enemy's next wave spawns at reduced strength.
If you gather all the obelisk pieces, a random enemy tower is destroyed, and the pieces re-scattered.
If you are holding the domination points, then every 10 points worth of domination, a random enemy unit dies.
Etc.

 

[Marcin Sciesinski]

Adding the blueprint, basically slaps on the "function" part of the structure you've built. So in the case of the little house above, adding the Smithy module gives it a smoke stack, a little side shop, a weapon rack, an anvil, etc. Essentially it puts the fine touches onto the unique structure you've built.

I'm not sure how hard or easy that would be to implement. If it's too tough, we can scale back the idea. But it's always good to throw out some ideas.

Freeform building + blueprints to add certain functions or structures is what we're shooting for I think. And freeform destruction of course. ; )

That would actually be quite complicated, depending on how strict/lenient the rules are going to be. The more lenient they are, the more difficult it gets, and I think quite exponentially. Also adding a function to an approved building is quite difficult as well, for example, you first have to figure out, where to place the side shop/weapon rack, anvil, etc., so need to figure out the orientation of the building, then you need figure out, if there is actually space to place these objects.

I'm also not entirely sure, if and how well does these new structures/objects (weapon rack/anvil) translate to the block building/destruction style of game. So, if the anvil is added, should a player be able to pick it up and put somewhere else? Anywhere? If the anvil is removed, does the building stops being a smithy?

I don't want to sound very pessimistic (I usually am), but it seems that a lot of the ideas in this thread do not take into account the limitations the game engine and game style (block building) imposes. You have to always keep in mind, that every block can be destroyed, moved, modified or replaced. You have to ask yourself a question - how the mechanics you'd like to introduce should react to this? This is a very difficult question, and you might find yourself realizing, that the idea is not compatible with this type of game.

 

[Skaldarnar]

A note towards the buildings concept: In general it would be possible to have simple restriction to what a building is. Basically, this would include something like closed (implies that the structure has to have a roof) and "enter-able" (needs some kind of door). You can tune this rules to allow some kind of "open" windows and stuff like that, but basically this is the base of all common specifications (think of DF or Minecraft).

Adding additional inventory and furniture "could" be possible once the rooms are defined. Defining rooms should be doable (in an efficient manner) once the building is identified as such (e.g. a room is a closed structure on one level -> rooms would need doors on the same level, but not to higher or lower floors).

The other way around might be easier: Putting a furnace and a anvil to a building would enable the option to make it a blacksmith's house. Removing the necessary items would cause the blacksmith to loose its feature.

These are quite technical details that should be discussed once multi-block structures are introduced and the information on buildings can be stored somehow.

Edit: The building/room check could be run whenever an "important" item or block is placed (e.g. a bed, furnace, anvil, ...). Rooms would be restricted in size (because placing a bed outside an testing all surrounding blocks for a room would run forever) and it would be nearly impossible for an automatic algorithm to distinguish a room from a corridor.

Another approach would be to let the user specify which block to test for rooms (and thus, defining several rooms) and then group rooms together as a building. By this approach, you can define a big palace with (not necessary attached) wings as one building.